EHO Knows: The Rising Sun w/ Lisa Hughes

Shane: [00:00:00] Welcome to what will probably be the weirdest episode of EHO knows. Up until now, , it’s title The Rising Sun, and just to show our age, uh, in case you’re gonna miss the reference, it’s the House of the Rising Sun. Um, for you, gen Z’s catch the song.

It’s one of the best ever written. , And to take us down what is gonna be a really interesting bunch of stories, I’ve got Lisa Hughes, uh, Lisa. Is a huge, huge advocate for environmental health. Um, she’s been a consultant, she’s been a lecturer. She is at every single conference I’ve ever been to, huge promoter and supporter of the industry, and so welcome Lisa.

Lisa: Thank you, Shane.

Shane: we are gonna be dabbling into, um, the houses of ill repute, and the challenges that it poses. So as an environmental health officer, yeah, what. Do you expect to see? And then we’ve got all the fun and games of what’s outside the realms of what you are meant to be looking after, but is a [00:01:00] huge problem.

So, what can an environmental health officer expect to see when they, they head out into the real world?

Lisa: Well, it’s something that we don’t get to see very much in our career, and it’s just that I spent a long time at the City of Sydney, , that I had, um, a lot of exposure to the sex on-premises venues. It can be incredibly confronting. When you first go out there because you have got sex toys and slings and harnesses, , you know, we go into the realms of golden showers and brown showers and things like that.

So it is, it can be incredibly confronting. , And it, you know, and that’s just into. almost a stock standard sometimes. Um, but you’ll also get, the workers who are often in, various states of undress, um, which can put um, environmental health officers sort of on the back foot to begin with.

Shane: Okay, so, so Sydney, uh, used to have the Notorious Kings Cross area and, um, and it’s been toned down a [00:02:00] lot. Attempted to be gentrified. But yeah, you’ve had the joys of working in, you’ve had the joys of working in the cross.

Lisa: Yes, I.

Shane: Uh, yes. Uh, professionally unprofessionally, whichever way. So as a, as a newbie, what was it like walking into the, you know, the first time you visited the cross or whatever?

Lisa: Um, I grew up in northwest Sydney. Um, my nearest neighbor was two kilometers away, so it was quite remote. I lived a very sheltered, , life up until that point. Um, walking into the cross for the first time was when I worked, and it was. Before the, the, all of the laws where of, you know, lockouts and all that kind of stuff., And it was the party town. It was incredibly confronting. And you had, the, the people out the front front trying to bring you into to premises and, and things like that. We would normally do the inspections during the day, however, we did do some, um, late night operations, um, which were a lot of fun. Um, but again, [00:03:00] incredibly confronting if you weren’t used to it.

Shane: What are you looking for?

Lisa: In a sex premises.

Shane: Yes.

Lisa: So we are looking to make sure, um, that the health and safety of both the workers and the clients is maintained. So we are making sure that, um, everything is in a clean condition, um, particularly for those items that are going to be reused. So we are looking at everything from the bedding, how they’re cleaning the room, if there’s showers.

We are looking at how they’re cleaning the showers and the toilets. Um, we are looking to make sure that they’ve got. Um, enough lighting so that, um, the workers can do sexual health checks before they offer the service. Um, right through to checking all of the sex toys to make sure that they are, um, in a clean condition, between clients.

Shane: So one would hope that you saw 100% compliance. Uh, let, let’s just go low, low bar. What was the worst you ever saw?

Lisa: The worst I ever saw was a [00:04:00] very small brothel where, the towels could pretty much get up and reproduce on their own. They didn’t have washing machines, um, so they were just reusing the towels. Between clients. It was a very low bar. We had a mattress on the floor, , type, uh, experience for, for clients.

And it was a sort of a, a quick in and out for, for the clients. There was very little sexual health, uh, checks going on. And, uh, it was, was an awful situation to be honest.

Shane: what’s the risks to the workers?

Lisa: So the risk to the workers, um, you know, you’ve, their main one is, sexually transmitted infections. Um, so that’s where the New South Wales Public Health Act really, is for these types of premises. Um, it’s all about preventing, uh, sexually transmi transmitted infections going between, clients, workers and, and things like that. So you’ve got that, but then you’ve also got just general health and safety, you know, have we got [00:05:00] cockroaches running around? If, are they going to, you know, like skin on skin, you know, you get fungal infections and all of those. Types of nasties can be, transmitted from person to person. Um, and if the worker, Gets one of these infections, whether it be a sexually transmitted infection, whether it be a, um, fungal infection, a skin infection, anything like that, it can be passed from worker to client. Um, so we are really making sure that, , our main priority is that the workers, , are safe, um, because they’re the ones who are going to see multiple people. Um, but also that they have the skills and knowledge to make sure that people are safe, um, that they’re going to offer a service to.

Shane: I’ve heard of golden showers before. Unfortunately it’s in literature nowadays, but brown shower. I don’t think I need too much imagination to work out what a brown shower is. What’s the health risk there like?

Lisa: Well, you are dealing with people’s feces. Um, so, you know, and as I say to my students, we are not here to judge anyone at any point in this, [00:06:00] in this. Whilst it may not be for you, it is for other people. And we need to make sure that they are going to be safe when they have these services. Um, so we’re looking at, things like hepatitis and things like that, with the workers, um, when they’re offering a service to. The, um, to the client. Now, there is a whole heap of, , privacy stuff around that. But we do try to encourage the management of these, um, BDSM pars and there’s not many of them around. They’re very specialized and there’s even lesser offer these services. Um, we do encourage them to ensure that their workers are up to date with all of their vaccinations, um, for this so that if there is an issue that it’s not, um, not getting passed on.

Shane: And so you talk about, you know, legalized registered ones. Um, how big’s the, the illegal ones, the undocumented ones?

Lisa: Um, it used to be quite a lot because, the, the laws changed. Oh, I’m showing my age here now, Shane. Um, the laws changed about 15 years ago, where it became.

Shane: [00:07:00] quoted the House of the Rising Sun, just putting it out there.

Lisa: So I was, I was gonna quote some

Shane: Isn’t that?

Lisa: then I really thought I was gonna show my age. But, um, yeah, look, the laws changed, um, some time ago, and, you know, where it wasn’t really legal, particularly in the suburbs. , It, it became,, legal. However, not many people knew that. And even less people in, the non-English speaking, background community knew that so that they thought that they needed to do it illegally. , And I remember when I worked, um, at a council in Northwest Sydney, I. We were often, we were, we were chasing the same, management around, , a particular, suburb.

And they would just go from apartment block to apartment block to apartment block. And we were like, you can do this. You can, you, you’ve just gotta apply for a development application and you can’t be in a residential zone, um, for a brothel. Um, but you can do this legally. [00:08:00] Um, so it is. , A difficult one because we usually only get the complaints when, people

Shane: Know I.

Lisa: see their neighbor having, you know, multiple men through a day. Um, so they’ll call with suspicions. But then to prove that, well, that’s a whole nother story, , that we get, , PIs involved and, uh, they go through the service and, . Their reports are interesting and graphic. , However, we don’t tend to do that anymore. It has been done in the past, but we don’t tend to get those involved too much in councils anymore.

Shane: So historically there was a question of, yeah, what’s legal and what’s acceptable, and so therefore you would bring someone in to, to label them, to close them down. That’s not happening anymore. So we’re no longer labeling them, which means that we’re no longer registering them, which means that we’re no longer, , monitoring them.

So so what about all the, the massage joints there that just offer a happy ending, , from [00:09:00] an EH O’s point of view? Turn a blind eye, or is it something that needs to be addressed?

Lisa: Personally, I think it needs to be addressed. Because in EHO, we just want people to be safe. That’s it. I’m not here to find you or do anything like that. I just want you and your workers and your clients to be safe. , So it is definitely something that I think we need to as EHOs monitor, those inspections, particularly on the ones that our development compliance teams, are investigating is really interesting.

We do get the black light out to look for, um, human fluids on. Walls and, all the bedding and all of that kind of stuff. And if you see a massage parlor with a lot of tissues, the spidey sensors start

Shane: Yes. Okay. So, uh, garbage bags filled with lots and lots of tissues, um,

Lisa: even in their

Shane: or

Lisa: They’ll just have lots and

Shane: floor.

Lisa: in their windows, and

Shane: Oh, okay.

Lisa: Yep.[00:10:00]

Shane: Yes. Uh, the tips I was always given was don’t go upstairs to a, um, massage place if the, the legit ones tend to be on the ground floor. And,

Lisa: heard that.

Shane: and if, sorry.

Lisa: I’ve not heard that.

Shane: Oh, okay. And then the other one was their, , their ads.

If their ads have just got a lot of pretty girls, then they’re not. Promoting this, their, um, professional massaging skills.

Lisa: are not

Shane: Um,

Lisa: or a medial massage, let’s put it that way.

Shane: yes. So the risks to the, um, the staff, , sexually transmitted diseases, but as well as, um, uh, yeah, hepatitis and all those other sort of things. What’s the worst that a, a bad brothel could do for public health, , for the clients?

Lisa: Offer services that, , don’t. Use condoms. That is probably the worst that they can do. And there are some that do offer [00:11:00] services without condoms. There are some workers within services who will on the side, offer without condoms. So you will be in a premises that is very good, very reputable, very high class, but. may get a worker in there that offers services without any protection. So that is a real concern for us and it is something that is really, really hard to regulate.

Shane: In the age of, um, aids, but just public awareness, you’d think that that would just not exist. How, how is it possible, like, uh, what are the factors that would have a person, you know, a, a worker put their life on the line for a couple dollars? Like how can it still exist in Australia?

Lisa: And it does a lot of the time and, and I’m just talking in generalities here, it does come down to money ’cause they can, ask for a premium price for that service. It’s not common, but it does [00:12:00] happen. And all we need is for one worker to. Have one of these STIs that is now going to potentially spread it around to a number of clients. And then those clients then, go home or, you know, go out on a night out and it, the spread just keeps happening.

Shane: Um, uh, organized crime, is it big within the, um, the industry or is it, yeah.

Where does that sit? I.

Lisa: it, it used to be really big, uh, back probably about 18 years ago, I did some inspections on a number of premises that were linked to organized crime, and we often had the police come in with us because there was. A lot of, drug taking. We had trafficking of girls and you can go through four corners.

Did a big expose many years ago on brothels in Sydney for that. There was, uh, a lot [00:13:00] of keeping the girls compliant by feeding them with drugs and things like that. And then also awfully underage people being employed in these. Brothels, within our suburbs. And these girls would just then get, you know, if there was interest in one particular parlor, they’d just get moved and moved and moved or they’d get moved, states and things like that.

And it was very, very difficult for an EHO, to be able to. You know, deal with that. It, it, it took a lot. ’cause you knew that these girls were unsafe. You knew that they probably could disappear at any moment. if you go in with a police officer, you are putting the backs up of the workers and the management straight away.

So you sort of. Needed to find that balance between going in, being safe, yourself as a, as a council worker or a government worker, and keeping those, those girls [00:14:00] safe as well. Yeah.

Shane: So did you ever have days where you just went home? You know, crying, broken, yeah, just devastated by what you saw.

Lisa: Yeah. Look, I am the ice queen. I don’t cry that much, that much. But I was, I, when I was pregnant with my daughter who is just about 16, couldn’t go into food shops because the smell would just make me. Very unwell. , So they gave me all of the sex premises within the City of Sydney area to do, days were quite difficult because, you know, hormones, I was emotional anyway, but there were some times where I would just, I would go outside and I would just need to take five, 10 minutes because I knew that these girls were in in danger and I needed to be able to. Figure out what to do, from that time. And I’d come home and, you know, I’d have, you know, download to my husband about what I’d [00:15:00] seen and what I’d had to do and all of that kind of thing. And there were days that were really, really hard, but I wouldn’t change it for the world.

Shane: Um. So you walk out. So these are girls whose lives are destroyed because of what’s going on. Uh, but from an environmental health officer, you are trying to create a as safe, a possible sort of solution, but they’re actually in something that’s so broken in the first place. Did you do something where you’re going, look, this can’t stay the way it is. You need to report, you need to change, you need to shut a business down.

Lisa: Yeah, so it’s really hard for an EHO to shut a business down. So what we would do from an inspector’s perspective is report it up through the chain of management, and then they would need to do what they felt that they needed to do for us to go, straight to the police. We may not be doing the right thing at that point in time because it is just suspicions. A lot of the [00:16:00] time we did have really good rapport with, with the police, and we could sort of say, look, a are any of these venues on your radar at the moment? could do that before we went into a premises so that we knew what we were walking into. sometimes we did need a police escort to go in because it was such a volatile environment. Uh, you know, we are talking early two thousands, so, you know, there were still weapons around and, and, um, lots of drugs and things like that. It wasn’t as bad as the eighties and nineties, but there we still did have a lot of that around at the time.

Shane: Um, did the police ever get physical?

Lisa: Oh

Shane: That’s a euphemism.

Lisa: Yes. Um, within their realms, uh, no. They, they did need to at some times. , We didn’t really have to arrest, they didn’t really have to arrest anyone, um, during those inspections because people found that it was just, you know, the, the management found that it was more of an issue. To do that [00:17:00] than just to let me in to do my inspection. and going on a tangent, it was the same with the, with the tattoos back in the days, it was easier for them to allow me in to do an inspection than, you know, up, up and me needing to get the cops. So they were usually quite compliant whilst I was there.

Shane: Yes. So let’s fast forward now, , environmental health officer. Let’s just anywhere, what’s probably the worst that an environmental health officer is likely to be walking into, , outside of, you know, a red light district.

Lisa: Super brothels are probably the one that thing that’s probably gonna be the worst. They are really complex from an environmental health perspective, so they’re not necessarily dangerous. But if you’ve got a super brothel with 20, 30, 40 rooms, you need to go in and inspect all of them. If you, if they offer A-B-D-S-M service as well, then that is going to elevate the risk. [00:18:00] Um, and the EHOs really need to have knowledge of those. Processes services to be able to know where to focus your inspection, where the lay, and almost like a critical control point that we look at in food as to where do we need to, to look at and aim to, to prevent, know, a, a terrible public health outcome.

Shane: Yes. And I was not gonna make some bad joke about scores on doors. Um,

Lisa: There is a website, there is a website.

Shane: but, okay, so. So what are all the hotspots? , Okay, so, , yeah, let’s go into teaching mode. Um, walk into these places. What are the classic places where things get bad but just aren’t inspected, aren’t cleaned, or whatever?

Lisa: Sure. So to be honest, the first thing we do when we walk into a place is make sure that there’s sexual [00:19:00] health information for the workers and the clients, and that includes. and pamphlets. You know, we’ve got the sexual work workers, sex workers outreach program swap, which provides free, material to the workers.

We’ve got the AIDS Council of New South Wales and New South Wales Health all provide free sexual health information for both workers and clients. So that’s probably where we would first start, to make sure that at the very beginning people are aware that, you know, this is. Can be high risk, so make sure that you are going to be safe. Then we would start looking at do they have condoms? So in various sizes they need to have condoms in various sizes. Do they have dental dams, things like that to make sure that the client and worker is gonna be safe with whatever service is being provided. The other thing that we really do start off with is lighting.

And it sounds a bit weird, [00:20:00] but you go into these places and they’re usually dark and dim and you know, mood lighting and things like that, but we need to have lighting bright enough for the workers to be able to undertake, uh, as sexual,, health check of the clients before they even agree to the service.

Shane: So. The documentation, is it on the agenda? Followed by do they actually have the tools of condoms, uh, needed to be safe? And then do they actually have the, , ability to do the, , the checks that they need to be doing? , Okay. , And moving on. What’s the horror places to be checking all the, yeah.

Lisa: The awfully, it’s the bedding, having to pull down the bedding to make sure that it’s clean. So I always say to anyone that I’m mentoring during these inspections, wear gloves and take lots of gloves with you. Light switches are filthy in any premises you tend to go into, [00:21:00] whether it be, um, a brothel or a food shop, or. Anywhere else, , take a couple of pens and use the pen to turn light switches on and off. One, you need to make sure the lights are working so that you know for cleaning and things like that. ,

Shane: Um.

Lisa: to make sure that the cleaning is being done appropriately, so if there’s any spills, bodily fluid spills that’s being cleaned between within the room, the beddings being changed between clients in the room. A lot of the time they’ve got showers and toilets in those rooms. You really want to make sure that those showers are thoroughly cleaned because sometimes the services can actually occur in the shower, um, and not the bed. So that is definitely something that needs to be cleaned between clients. Some of the higher end brothels will have pools. So they will have spas or pools I didn’t find, again, that is really, really a difficult thing [00:22:00] to, to maintain. , Particularly between clients. Do they offer the service in the pool or is just the, is the pool just being used for the clients as part of the, the beginnings of the service? types of things?

You need to really question when you are in there.

Shane: So you are a young graduate, fresh in, you just have to ask all the questions. Um.

Lisa: embarrassed about it. And one of my favorite inspections, um, was of a, a, a gay cruise club. Now a cruise club is a sex on premises venue. Okay? And it is where. Random people. So it’s, there’s not a, a, um, sex worker. It is just random people will come to a venue, um, to have sex or whatever it is that they want to do with a consenting partner, whether they know them or not know them.

So we are talking, you know, boos with glory holes for anonymity and all of that type of thing. And they are really interesting places to work. But they do like to sort of have a little bit of fun [00:23:00] with the, the inspectors while we’re there. And they will put the gay porn on and they will turn it up to, um, a very high level. And if you’re

Shane: Yeah.

Lisa: I get the giggles up because I think it’s amazing. But some inspectors it is completely confronting. They’ve never been, know, exposed to anything like this before. You’ve just gotta keep calm. You don’t get offended, even if it’s something that you don’t want. To see, or it’s not part of what it is that you are interested in. You’ve just gotta keep it together, keep it professional, because they will do this to try and get you off your game.

Shane: Okay. From a, uh, council’s PO point of view, from a management point of view, um, should an environmental health officer have the the right to turn around and say, I don’t wanna be exposed to this. Can someone else do it?

Lisa: Absolutely, we have had that in the past for whatever it is. Whether it be just it’s not for them or cultural [00:24:00] reasons or religious reasons, that is totally okay. We don’t wanna put you in anything that is going to make you uncomfortable from a, you know, from a personal perspective. However, you are an environmental health officer.

So there is no judgment to be given to those people who, you know, are in those premises. But you can ask your manager to say, look, it, it’s just not for me. Um, is there someone else who can do that for, for me? You know, and it, Every place I’ve ever been at has been okay with that.

Shane: Yeah. So back as a pregnant mom 16 years ago where you were suddenly just dropped in the deep end,

Lisa: Yes.

Shane: would you have liked to have had the no option, you know, um, or it was just part of the job?

Lisa: It’s just part of the job. I, I, I enjoy, I really actually love what I do, this was something that. I probably wouldn’t [00:25:00] be to much outside of that local government area. Be just because of the, the amount that was there at the time. I’m not sure. I’ve been out of that place for a long time now, so I’m not sure how many are still there. But I enjoyed the experience. I love to learn. I’m one of those weirdos that really enjoys just learning about things I, I found it really, really interesting. Um, and being an EHO, again, I know I keep harping on about this, but you just want people to be safe and, you know, I don’t judge anyone for anything. It is just, you know, as long as you are in there and you are consented to it and you are safe, no judgment.

Shane: Yes. And so jumping the border where it’s either, , it’s illegal or just moving away to where it’s, , not registered, , if an e uh, an EHO knows that something’s going on, what’s your advice there?[00:26:00]

Lisa: Start asking the questions, but do it with your development compliance team, because particularly in New South Wales and I can only really speak to the New South Wales legislation, the New South Wales Health Act. Only talks about STIs. That is it. It doesn’t have anything else that we look at as ehs. So the way that we register a, , a sex on-premises venue and. Have entry rights is through their development consent, through the EP and a act. So that’s how we get in. So if we suspect that a place is operating without consent, or is a massage parlor that may be offering extra services, then we actually, uh, we do have the authorizations, but it’s not really. Our remit to go in and do those inspections to say, right, what are you doing? You know, are you doing X, Y, and Z? We will go in with the development compliance teams to assist them, so they’ll do the. know, is it, um, operating without [00:27:00] consent? Part of it. But we will support them with the environmental health side of it. So, uh, you know, do they have, all the equipment that they need?

Do they have enough bedding? Do they have washing machines? Do they have dryers? You know, all of that stuff type of stuff.

Shane: , I know, uh oh. When we were talking about, . Tattoo places on a previous episode, , suddenly, , one of the sources of finding out information was just to go online and say, Hey, I am after a tattoo. And suddenly you discover all these, um, home-based operations. , Is it a, um, . Do any councils ever want to go down the, um, , the rabbit hole and actually work out how bad or how large, , the problem is

Lisa: Well, because in New South Wales that it’s, it’s legal to work from home, um, as a single operator is, it is exempt development Under the legislation, we don’t really

Shane: I.

Lisa: go down that rabbit hole. Other states it will be very, very different. It [00:28:00] does, make your social media algorithms quite interesting when you start doing that, and may not be suitable for work. There are some really informative websites out there that are typically just for sex workers to promote their business and to get clients. Um, and the clients provide some very interesting reviews as well. So all of that is out there. Do not go onto those websites without speaking to your department first because you will be flagged and they, they are very interesting conversations to have from experience.

Shane: Yes, we just have it here with the developers going onto hacking sites and you go, but that’s where the information is. So, um, yeah, the joys. Okay. So, , yeah, it’s, it’s an interesting can of worms. We’ve got the. All the legal stuff, the illegal stuff, you’re gonna be, um, uh, shocked and horrified. , But the, um, the risk to workers for not getting it [00:29:00] right, , and the risk to the public for not getting it right means that someone has to do it.

And like all those other great tasks that someone has to do, environmental health officers are the ones who, um, to get it, pregnant or not. Whatever the case may be., Yeah, the, the joys of public health in all its shapes, , that’s probably a really good place to,, finish there. So, , yes, thank you Lisa, for what has now turned into a totally r-rated episode, and I’m gonna have to put a disclaimer at the start.

And then , there’s gonna be a bunch of terms where you’re going incognito mode. What was she talking about? , Yeah. Thank you very much, Lisa.

Lisa: No worries at all.