EHO Knows: Cruise Control Part two w/ Cameron Smith

Cameron: [00:00:00] I just had my four weeks of basic training. I’ve just arrived. Uh, hello. We’re working, and don’t me wrong, luckily, after two weeks there was, there was a fleet public health officer coming on board to do an audit, and the hotel director said, Kim, we’ve got this guy coming. Spend all your time with him for the next two weeks.

And suddenly every, the penny just dropped. It was like, he spent time and he just showed me what it actually meant. When you are working, what it meant versus training, you’re hearing it. You go, oh, that makes sense. That makes sense. But when you’re there by yourself, sometimes you go. You start second guessing yourself because it’s so new.[00:01:00]

And I think that’s the biggest thing is you, ’cause you’re working solo, there’s a lot of pressure on you. You don’t have that team that you go, well who do I turn to? As you would say, in local government or state government. ’cause there’s other people you can work with here. It’s, you’re on your own and you are supposed to be the expert.

People are coming to you for advice. So there’s a lot of reading, a lot of interpretation. You go, I’ve read it, I understand it, but what does that mean practically? And yeah, that was, that was that first month on board. They were long days where you were working 11, 12 hours a day because it was just so much knowledge, so much information I had to try and take on and try to get myself into a routine where I was comfortable with myself.

But after that first month and having someone to guide me, it was totally different. It’s something you had the confidence. And that’s the thing, if you don’t have confidence, the crew will chew up and situate. If you can’t show confidence that you know what you are talking about, you know what to do and you are giving them direction, not, oh look, I’m not sure.

I’ll go and check. Uh, [00:02:00] that, that’ll get you. That’s cutthroat. You’ll get yourself killed doing that.

Shane: And, and so going all the way back to, you know, what are the qualifications? So you need to have a couple years of, uh, EHO experience in the first place just to be able to say yes. Yeah, this works or this doesn’t work. Um, but then combined with learning their standards or whatever, so if you’re a graduate, um, you can’t afford to have that.

Oh, I’m not sure exactly what works or whatever. So, um, show no fear, um,

Cameron: Basically that, yeah, abs, you know your stuff. And that’s where they, that’s why they look for people with some experience working on law. And because if you’re a regulator on land, you know how to deal with difficult customers because the crew can, they can be an absolute. Bunch of assholes at times if they wanna be.

But at the same time, you work with really lovely people. So when you deal with a different, and I had an example, I had one chef, the executive chef came [00:03:00] to me and said, cam, we’ve got one chef. He doesn’t wanna follow the public health procedures. He, he and I went, I’ve seen that, I saw that yesterday and I was gonna, and I was like, oh, I’m gonna have a chat.

I’m glad you raised this. He says, what are we gonna do? I said, right. I’m gonna have a word to him about this. And it was like a polite, friendly word, which was, you need to follow this, you need to do this. You need to wear a cap in the galley. You can’t ha he was bald. He says, I don’t have to, I’ve got no hair.

I said, that’s not the point. He sweating. Your sweat is going all over your, over your workstation, and I’ve seen you wipe your hand on your head and then wipe it on your apron and then continue to work. No joke, not joking. Um, but it was, that was the polite version, which is, by the way, I’ll be back at 6:00 PM tonight and if we’re not wearing a cap and doing the right things, my next stop will be HR because the executive chef and I of the opinion, you’re not following public health procedures.

Six o’clock rolls around. Are you gonna comply? Nope. Okay. Off to hr. HR goes Right. I’ll have a chat. We’ll have a chat with the captain. Captain next [00:04:00] day, ma. Uh, captain’s Mast, senior Executive Officers. All around the table, please explain what’s going on. You think they’re explaining it all? And in the end, they’ve said right to the chef, A you gonna comply?

Oh, stop. Before you think about this, we are gonna confine you to your cabin for the next 48 hours. You may come out to have meals, otherwise you are confined to quarters. At the end of that, we’ll see you in two days where you’ve had time to think. Two days later they said, right, are you gonna comply with the public health officer directions and follow the rules that he’s put down for you?

And he’s gone? No. And they’ve gone. Well, in that case, it just so happens HR has your ticket home. You’ll be off this afternoon and flying home, and he’s gone, oh, so if I follow the rules, I’m right to stay, am I? And they said, well, you were, but as we can see, you’re not a team player. We don’t want you on board.

You’re gone with a no no rehire con on your contract, and that’s where they get you. It’s like you are fact, you’re gone and they put no rehire on. You are not coming back to work. So it really does cramp your, uh, potential for future work. [00:05:00] So performance is everything that people do worry about that because they are a performance managed and every contract is reviewed.

And if they put that do not rehire, you’re stopped.

So it’s savage

Shane: Um, what I thought was. Yeah, interesting was it was, oh wait a minute. No, no, you’re serious. And they go, no, no, are out now you’ve demonstrated that you really don’t want to comply. Um, and you

Cameron: and he sort of, and he go

Shane: to get a ticket because the option was gonna be the plank. And so, yes.

Cameron: and, and the fact that he saw it was a two day holiday because he got two days off, confined a cabin that’s a holiday. Uh, and that’s something crew don’t, you know, because crews don’t, we don’t get days off. So to have two days off, he saw he was, oh, it was a joke thinking, oh, I’ll just come back and I’ll call continue on because you need me.

And it’s like, no, we need people who will follow the rules and not put others in danger because you aren’t a team player. That’s the biggest thing. You need to rely on your shipmates, and if you can’t rely on them, you don’t want them.

Shane: Yeah. Okay. So you said, uh, you work 120 days [00:06:00] straight. what’s the crap, crap, crap. Part of the job. The stuff that you don’t read on the, the advertising brochure.

Cameron: Hmm. In terms of the actual workload or in terms of the hours? The hours are, again, crew work a standard 10 hour day. And any hours over that is either, um, credited to them. So they only work a maximum of 70 hours a week. Whereas officers are expected to work anywhere between 10 to 14 hours a day. And even then it’s questionable about that 14 hour limit.

Um, even though it’s like for safety reasons, but sometimes I had a couple of examples where we were going to US ports. I would’ve done easily 15, 16 hours prepping the ship for the day before to ensure that if we got that random audit from a US inspector, we were ready and we would pass. So it’s just, yeah, they’re long days.

Shane: a week,

Cameron: Yep.

Shane: and you’re doing that for 120 [00:07:00] days straight.

Cameron: It’s a total, you just get used to it.

Shane: what are the jobs that you had to do that you didn’t like doing?

Cameron: I personally think I look, I, I wasn’t keen on pest control. That was probably one I didn’t enjoy the most. Um, ‘ cause it was just sometimes, ’cause I was not ever trained to handle chemicals. I didn’t have to handle ’em. But I had to do a lot of research on specific chemicals. ’cause I’m going, well, this is what we’ve got.

What’s an effect? How are we gonna deal with this problem? So that was probably more challenging than just using my general skills and knowledge. Whereas I had a very good background in food, water, uh, recreational water, that, so for me that was like second nature. So pest control was probably more challenging.

I enjoyed the random challenges that just came out of left field. And I’m like, oh, that’s different. Okay, that’s a challenge. But the PEs one, because it was very, very detailed orientated because the records we had to keep were quite, um, challenging every week.

’cause you were chasing people for documentation and you knew the documentation may be fabricated at times, so then you’re having to go [00:08:00] back and double check. And that was probably the worst one because people just didn’t wanna keep the record for pest control. You could see it just when you got them coming in and you knew that they were just ticking boxes without looking.

’cause you go and have to audit them and then go, yeah, this is bullshit.

Shane: Yep. Okay. So no comfort zone. You, you have to do everything. You can’t sit back, you can’t rely on another team member because you are the only

Cameron: You are the only one. You’re the only one.

Shane: you have to do everything that’s within. Yeah. okay. So that’s the bad side. What’s the good side? What’s, what’s the, the stuff that you really miss.

Cameron: between the dinners, the dancing, the guests, the crew, the people are wonderful across the board because you’re dealing with people who are happy. They’re on holidays, of course, they’re gonna wanna be, they’re having fun. They’re not complaining that much. Uh, but. Yeah, look, you get the occasional complaint, but you actually make people’s day because you have a turnaround time quickly, because that’s the pressure I’m, if they’re complaining today, [00:09:00] you don’t wait a week or two to deal with it.

It’s like, no, they want resolutions within 24 hours or at least to show that you’ve done something. Uh, it doesn’t happen often, but occasionally it does. Uh, but at the same time, the crew talking to the crew, you learn so much. You’re dealing with people from all over the world. You’re hearing stories like, just because they’re prepping food doesn’t mean they won’t talk to you while they’re working and you’re hearing things, you’re watching, observing, you are seeing what’s going on.

But at the same time, you’re hearing some amazing stories about their travels or what they’ve seen, uh, the places you visit. So yes, you might work long days, but. In the afternoons, I had a four hour break. So in that four hours I could either have a sleep in the afternoon or I could go shore side, go explore, go see things, um, certain ports.

I got told no noche, you’ve gotta go shore this afternoon. Do not miss this chance. This is an amazing experience. I went, okay, I’ll goho and I’ll. The hotel direct was right. I’m glad I did. So you do have a lot of fun in the process. So you’re traveling the world still. You’re seeing things that guests pay a lot of money to see [00:10:00] and you are getting, you’re going, oh yeah, I just went and just did that.

’cause I could this afternoon. So that’s why. So yeah, you work long hours, you work really hard, but there’s a lot of advantages of it. Dining with guests, I had, I met so many guests and you’d sit down, you’d have dinner with them, you, they’d ask questions about your work or the ship or how things are, but then you’d talk and they’d tell you about what countries they’re from, what they did, what they’ve seen.

You just have so many wonderful experiences with the guests and crew interaction that the time actually flies by. You know, part of my work hours was, oh yeah, I’ve gotta go dance. I’ve gotta go dancing tonight for an hour and a half. That’s an hour and a half of work because you’d knack it at the end of it.

But that, and it’s like, well, yeah, absolutely. But because you’re interacting with guests, it’s one of our key performance indicators, guests and officer interaction. It’s measured and seen by short, so they look at it, your shippers not interacting with guests. You need to get officers there. You need to interact with them.

Guests love that. So yes, you do work long hours, but some of that [00:11:00] work, is it work or is it actually just a lot of bloody fun? And you can, and you go, that’s work. So yeah, there’s a lot of to it. But again, it knocks you around by 11 o’clock rolls round, you’re going, yeah. Yeah. I’m knackered now and I’m back at work at seven in the morning.

So yeah, you can have some short days because of that, but it is a lot of fun.

Shane: the love boat, how close to reality was it?

Now we’re showing

Cameron: uh,

Shane: We,

Cameron: we, we, we, we, we are look.

Shane: What are you talking about?

Cameron: I’ve sent you a slide, which I think you’re gonna use in this presentation where Ted Lang, better known as Isaac Washington from The Love Boot, actually is in a crew photo because they, the love boat crew became symbolic of that brand.

They were ambassadors, they were seen and would go on cruises with guests as part of it. So those people are synonymous with, with Princess Cruise lines. So realistically, in some ways you go Yes, it is close to it. Having said that, yeah. Docs [00:12:00] performances on screen and with women that would get you sacked in the real world.

But apart from that, yeah, there’s a, yeah, yeah. Guests and crew interaction like that. Not on none of the no hanky panky stuff, not on that’s Sackable. Um, but at the same time, a lot of the other stuff in the hard work, the behind the scenes to make guests happy. Yeah, absolute. And their positivity of those people.

The stories I’ve seen and heard that, yeah, those ambassadors, they going on to be ambassadors was amazing. Guests loved it. They’d loved to be on board ship when Gopher was there or something like that when they were doing a cruise. It just made it so familiar, so real.

Shane: towards the end of your presentation. You’ve got this, um, awesome story about, uh, setting up on an island. Um, so as much as everything else we’ve been talking about is on the, the, um, the ship, tell us the story about. The island and you know, what do you have [00:13:00] to do off the boat?

That’s now within your control as well.

Cameron: Well, that, that’s part of it. So part of the public health officer’s role actually is also shore side in terms of, uh, ex shore excursions, purchasing food. In this case we’re talking about the islands. So a lot of cruise or organizations, uh, sorry, cruise lines actually have either private islands or they hire facilities where they will take guests to on a regular basis.

So in this particular case here, when we were in the Caribbean, we had a particular, um, uh, resort that we would, uh, basically anchor at and the crew, food, cutlery, plates, yada, yada, et cetera, first thing across in the morning to start setting up for a beach barbecue for the day.

Uh, the executive chef and myself would go and buy. Uh, prearranged obviously, but we would then go and pick up, uh, live, uh, lobsters for the guests. Uh, and then we would start making, [00:14:00] overseeing the setup for the day. So basically we would move most of the guests shore for a day at the beach.

So you are actually working with the resort, you are working with their kitchen or, uh, ‘ cause you’re storing food in their cool rooms, et cetera. And then you’re having a setup outside. And again, you’ve got policies and procedures in place to ensure that food is stored, displayed, uh, and temperature control because again, you’re in the 35 degree plus during the Caribbean, you know, summer season.

But at the same time you’re setting up Mark. They’ve got Mark hes set up and the guests absolutely love it. So you’re working with the crew to basically cook a beach bar. It’s an Aussie barbecue. It’s amazing. Uh, but at the same time again, you, you’ve also ensuring that. Guests are having a wonderful time.

But so do the crew because while you’re there, the ge there’s a crew area where the crew can go and have a, have a swim that afternoon. There’s no surf. I was gonna say surf, but it’s dead flat, the Caribbean. So it’s really lovely for swimming. So the crew [00:15:00] goes ashore and take that opportunity to have a swim, not in the guest area.

Of course, that would be terrible.

Shane: no. Yeah, because you’re not allowed to have any fraternization. Um, so you’re talking about thousands of people suddenly just being dumped into a small, um, relatively speaking resort or an island or whatever, and

uh,

a big event.

Cameron: Classic example, Santorini. Now, Santorini, I, I believe most people would know Santorini with the white houses, the blue roofs, beautiful island. But at the height of the summer season there you have six cruise ships all arrive. You can have an influx of up to 20,000 people suddenly hit the town.

That’s huge tourism. until you see it for yourself, you go 20,000 bill doesn’t sound like that much, but when you are sort of going, oh, that’s an hour and a half queue to get on the cable car that takes you from the bottom of the santorini up to the top, to the vil, you know, into the town itself.

You go, this is a lot of people that suddenly descend upon one location.

Shane: I am not sure if you just did a negative ad there for a cruise [00:16:00] ship rocking up and going, what? You do not wanna be the sixth cruise ship. Um, so off

Cameron: Yeah, I’m actually suggesting off peak actually. Yes, yes, yes. Uh, and that’s one of the cha and that’s one of the tricks, but see in the height of the, um, tourism season. Yeah. No, it’s terrible. But if you are early or late in the season, yeah, absolutely fantastic times. Went to a lot of places late in the season or early in the season, saw so many things, but in the peak of it, very, very busy.

But again, as a tourist, you’ve got all day. When your crew, you’ve got limited hours. So this is where it becomes a bit of a rub that you go, I’ve only got four hours, but if I’ve gotta wait an hour and a half to get on a a cable car, you’re not gonna do it. But at the start of the season or the end of the season when the numbers are very low, best time to go.

So you will get those experiences and once you’ve been there a few times, you go, I know what’s already there. Do I really need to go ashore? Probably not. So, uh, so this is where it swings in roundabouts. So yeah, so you can pick your time. You’ll see amazing things as a crew member, but as a [00:17:00] guest, not so bad when you’ve got a whole day.

and I suppose that’s the difference, uh, if you’re going there as a guest versus a crew member.

Shane: and so what I learned from my brother was that cruise ships will typically do circuits. And so, you know, you could be on the, doing the Caribbean or um, you’re suddenly doing ones up to Alaska or you’ve got the ones that are doing the, the Pacific or whatever. Um, so you did four, um, of duty. Uh, whereabouts were you?

Cameron: Uh, so my first tour was the west coast of the USA, so basically running up and down between, um, LA and Mexico. Then my second tour was the tail end of the Mediterranean season. So basically I was joined the ship, uh, in 10 Reef, which is Canary Islands, and then basically sailed across the Atlantic to the Caribbean.

So I did the whole season in the Caribbean. My next tour was the, [00:18:00] was, uh, the Mediterranean, which was just basically Greece, Turkey, Italy. Amazing. By the way. That’s the plug. That’s amazing. Uh, and my la and the fourth floor was back to the Caribbean again.

Shane: And so, which one’s the best?

Cameron: Oh,

Shane: know, if you’re only gonna do one, which

Cameron: oh.

Shane: pick?

Cameron: It’s a toss up. Actually. There’s a to up I, I i, it was really cranky. I never got to do the Alaska run, uh, because I do hear fantastic stories about Alaska, but then if you like the, if you like sun, sand and so on the Mediterranean, absolutely amazing. Uh, the water magical sparkling. Uh, you, you hear stories of the water’s blue and you look at Australian water and you go, it’s a bit of a green tinge.

And on the Mediterranean it’s genuinely blue. Uh, so for me, I found the Mediterranean was so enjoyable between going between the Greece, Italy, uh, Turkey. Yeah, that was just emphasis in Turkey, uh, ancient Roman city. [00:19:00] But it was the place of place where, what we have Cleopatra, mark, Anthony, uh, Julius Caesar, all the name, big names all turned up there.

Population of over a quarter of a million and the roads are still made of marble. There you are walking the marble roads. So you see some antiquity stuff that it’s just absolutely mind blowing. So for me, history was amazing to see these cultural things, whereas the Caribbean, after two weeks of the Caribbean, you go, I’ve had enough being in the water, I haven’t had enough swimming.

There’s not a lot else to do there. And that’s why most people, especially the Brits, it’s an eight hour flight from Heathrow to, uh, St. John’s. They do a two week tour and then they’re back to five degree temperatures in England again for Christmas. So for me, the Mediterranean, you could easily spend a month there, whereas the Caribbean two weeks and you’ve seen it all.

Done it all. And they had a nice swim. Uh, as opposed to Alaska, which everybody says is it’s picturesque. And look, the big one at the moment is on the smaller explorer. Ships going down to, um, [00:20:00] Antarctica. That’s becoming very popular in the, on the smaller vessels, but very, very expensive to do that particular tour.

But the photos are seen from the crew members. See, this is why pay to be crew absolutely stunning the ice. And so it’s just absolutely magical.

Shane: So why did you stop?

Cameron: well, the main re the main reason I stopped was, um, mainly for personal reasons as much as I loved it. Um, Australia has a problem with its taxation system because most countries and the crew who work on cruise ships have a tax free, um, income because most international seafarers, if they do over 170 days a year, are classified as international and they don’t pay tax in their country.

Unlike Australians in the US who love to tax their citizens. So when you’re getting an income that is generally deemed to be tax free, and then you suddenly say, oh yeah, no, but I’m losing at least 30% of that in tax, they go, that’s your problem, not ours. Yeah. It becomes very hard to sort of manage that.

So that’s probably the biggest [00:21:00] one is the taxes, tips, and you don’t get superannuation, so that’s another 12% of your wage that you’re not getting working overseas. So as experience wise, goes an amazing job, but long term living in Australia, it’s a problem. But if I was to say move to the Philippines or Thailand or South Africa or the uk, not so bad then because you are getting a tax free income and you’re recognized as such.

So yeah, look, unfortunately the taxation system was really what killed it for me.

Shane: I was hoping that you’d be going, I was earning so much money that I suddenly had a huge tax problem,

Cameron: everyone’s not paying tax. And it’s like you come back and the taxation department says, oh, we know she brought this much money into the country you owe the tax is a tax bill for you. Yeah. And that’s real shame because it would, you would see more Australians working at sea if it wasn’t for the taxation system.

And that’s real sad to say that, but I go, well, why would I wanna work those long hours for that many days straight when I can work in Australia for half the hours [00:22:00] for more money and pay and pay tax? It, it, it just doesn’t encourage that lifestyle unfortunately. But as, as a short term for a co for two years, that’s what I did it for.

It was amazing. And then I, you know, had a job to go back to as well, so, yeah. So the council wanted me back at my job and they said, well make a choice. And I went, Hmm. Bit hard to choose which one. One pays Yeah. Better wages for half the hours. I know which one I’ll keep.

Shane: So, so in summary, you work 120 days straight without a

Cameron: Mm-hmm.

Shane: you are working 70 to a hundred hour, um, weeks. Um, you. away from, um, family or friends. Um, you are not getting time to, uh, have a couple days off or whatever. Uh, if you’re healthy, you are at work and

Cameron: That’s it.

Shane: exceptional. Uh, okay, so we’ve now sold the [00:23:00] job, okay? So that’s why you wanna sign up.

so the downside is you will see the world, you will meet lots and lots of interesting people. You will have time to get your feet wet occasionally, and mix with the locals. Do stuff that you just would never have done, and you’ll be paid to do the good stuff.

So who would you recommend it? Two.

Cameron: I think I’d recommend to anybody who ha has a reasonable number of years of experience, uh, working in local government or state government, uh, anybody who wanted, who wanted to actually travel and see the world, it gives you a great understanding of, look, don’t get me wrong, France. I would’ve said some of the rudest people in the world, I’m probably gonna get shot for.

This is French. Now, when I went to Southern France, they were the nicest people under the sun. And I went, oh my God, these people are so nice. And then I said, I, I had to apologize to ’em saying, I always had the impression French people were really rude. And they said, oh no, you are right. You go to Paris.

And that those French people up there, they’re rude as the Northerners are terrible. [00:24:00] And I went, oh, I’m seeing a difference. So Southern France, lovely, lovely people. Northern France are really rude people. So I had my wage, uh, you know, my eyes were really open that actually I.

Shane: ratings in France.

Cameron: Oh, I look absolutely,

Shane: Okay. Um, so, people with families, are there married people on board or

Cameron: ah, great, I’m great. You said that actually. Look, that’s one of the privileges of being an officer is you can actually have your family aboard the ship. They come aboard as guests. So depending on your rank, depends on how many months a year you can have them aboard as your guest. So yes, they share your quarters, they have the privileges of guests so they can actually enjoy themselves by the poolside, they can dine, et cetera.

No problems there at all. So you, they try to make it family friendly for the officers, at least because the officers have more responsibility, so there’s a lot more pressure on them because if something goes wrong, the buck stops with them so they can bring their families.

So to try and keep [00:25:00] people in the job because you are away for so many months a year, they wanna try and keep people, you know, happy and they want people to have happy families now at the same time. Yes, having a family at home and there’s a lot of people that successfully work at the, uh, probably ’cause they work at the, that’s why they’ve got a happy family.

But they do go home, have their time at home, but then they have to return again. So there is that work-life balance. So for me, again, one of the problems that working away is my insurance doesn’t cover my house after three months. When you’re working for four months overseas, I have to have someone house sit for me or I have to rent it or I have to find someone who wants to live here while I’m away.

So these are the sort of things you need to consider if you wanna work overseas is, yeah. If you’ve got a house, how do you keep it insured if you haven’t got someone living in it? But at the same time, you also meet wonderful people at sea as well. So you c lots of romances happen at sea, lots of pe, married couples work at sea.

So that’s the thing. They try to [00:26:00] accommodate married couples. So if you, and what they call linking a contract, if you are linked, they try to schedule so you are working together so you can live and work together to keep your relationship alive. So they keep all this in mind because happy Crew are good crew.

And mental health is actually a serious issue at the, because isolation can occur, depression can occur. If you’re away from family, you have a breakup with your wife at home and you are months away from going home, that’s, that’s detrimental to someone’s mental health. Not being able to go home, have those conversations or find out.

The, the partner’s cheating at home or at sea, just saying it’s, it’s huge. So there’s a lot of trust involved. There’s, it’s a, it can be very precious and stressful, but some people do it because they have good families and they do it because they care about their families. The Filipinos, they work their asses off to send money home to give their family and their [00:27:00] children much better education.

Uh, talking to one, one chef, he said, what I earn here is in one month is three times what I can earn at home. So I make that sacrifice for my family to put my children into really good education system so they can get really good jobs when they finish. So he knew the sacrifice he was making ’cause he was earning three times as much as he could at home.

So yeah, there’s some real positives, but making sure mental health and people are looked after is really critical at sea. It is something I can’t stress more.

Shane: Okay, so I think that’s a. Great place to, to finish if anyone does want to consider a, um, yeah, heading to sea, I assume contact you and,

Cameron: Oh, absolutely.

Shane: if you’re caught in a flood, talk to you as well. Um, and I have no idea what we’re gonna talk about next time on the, um, the, the podcast.

Let’s try and make it pleasurable rather than disaster oriented.

Cameron: Oh yeah. I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shane: very much Cameron for coming back.[00:28:00]

Cameron: No, it looks been an absolute pleasure. And look, and, and now, now you’ve just made me miss it all again. I’ve gone, oh, I wanna apply for another job to go back again.

Shane: yeah. Okay. Thank you for that. And we’ll catch you all later.

Cameron: Thank you everyone. have a great night.