EHO Knows: Under the Microscope w/ Jacob Shaw

Shane: [00:00:00] Welcome to the next episode of EHO Knows. Now, one of my favorite TV shows was CSI. The first season of CSI was just absolutely amazing because you really got to see inside the lab and what was happening in the lab. And as the seasons progressed, it just became fun and funnier because suddenly you had the CSI crew out and about kicking down doors, pulling out guns, and doing all that sort of stuff.

Um, and so it was just really, really funny to watch the transition from a bunch of lab rats who are happy to wear lab coats and do labi sort of stuff. Slowly morph into, Hey, we’re superhero cops, and, um. And today’s EHO knows we are doing a CSI. So, so we’re gonna be talking to someone who started life as a lab rat, um, working in a lab and then decided, no, the grass is so much greener on the other side.

And they became a superhero and they became an environmental health officer. Uh, so today, EHO knows, uh, Jacob Shaw, [00:01:00] welcome to the podcast.

so I’ve given a spoiler and said that you’ve already turned into a superhero, but, um, in, in 30 seconds, what’s been your entire life, career? Uh.

Jacob Shaw: So, um, absolutely. I started my, uh, career as a lab rat, as a medical laboratory scientist. Uh, I spent my days in, in many nights, um, deep in kind of the world of molecular and microbiological diagnostics. Uh, we’re talking things like old school. Things like, um, gram stains, microscopy, and, uh, more into the modern world of PCR and, and whole genome sequencing as well, um, as, uh, quickly keep it 30 seconds down.

But, um, I did enjoy the technical puzzles of being in the lab. Um, worked in hospitals and public health labs. Um, but you start to feel quite contained in a lab. Many labs don’t have windows to the outside world. Um, and that’s kind of what made me, made me realize that the science is in the lab, but the impacts in the community as an ER.

Shane: So what was the trigger point? What, what [00:02:00] even introduced you to the the world of BHO?

Jacob Shaw: Absolutely. Um, so as I said, I started in hospital diagnostic labs, so I was doing the, the general stuff for, uh, you get infections or if you, if you have to go to the hospital for any reason. Um, and I found my way into, um, the microbiological diagnostic unit Public Health Laboratory in Victoria. Which is the, the laboratory that works for the Department of Health essentially, that does all those environmental health investigation testing. Um, and in that job I got to meet so many eh hos and work collaboratory collaboratively with them, um, that I got really interested in this field. And that’s kind of why I retrained.

I.

Shane: Yes. Okay. So we’re gonna basically just ask two questions today. So today’s not gonna be a, Hey, here’s a horror story, um, type episode. But really we’re just gonna be asking, um, two questions. First question is, now that you’re an EHO talking to EHOs. What’s the stuff that EHOs just aren’t unaware [00:03:00] of in terms of the, um, the resources that are available to them back in the lab.

Um, and then, uh, the second question is, um, what are the, the. Either common or the not so common mistakes that an EHO can do out in the field that will just totally undermine all the work that they’re doing and the work that’s happening in the lab. Um, and so yeah, you are in that ideal position. So question number one, um, yeah.

What do labs have to offer that EHOs just aren’t aware of or aren’t using enough of, in your opinion?

Jacob Shaw: Absolutely. Um, I think especially the last couple years of being in EHO now, um, I’ve realized that, um, most, eh, hos probably don’t know the full capabilities of what a public health lab can kind of offer. Um, I think in the context of especially Victoria, from, from where I’ve worked the most, um, it’s important to remember that. Public health labs obviously do all the testing for you. Um, but they’re [00:04:00] usually huge teams. Myself, as a scientist, I was doing a lot of the diagnostic testing, but all of my information, all the whole genome sequencing that we did, um, went through to our team of bioinformaticians and epidemiologists that would do all that contact tracing. Um, so I think to begin with. One thing that EHOs need to know is what those labs can actually do. You can test your water, water samples, um, for possible drinking water or for cooling towers like legionella, um, your food samples for any kind of outbreak. Um, and then of course your environmental swabs for investigations, clinical samples from patients, um, whether that’s fecal samples for outbreaks.

I personally did a lot of work, um, with COVID Diagnostics as well during all the outbreaks. Um, and even, uh, some public health labs. The Peter Doty Institute, um, in Victoria has a PC three lab for even anthrax testing and, um, and a PC four lab for Ebola testing as well. I think it’s just really important that they [00:05:00] know, um, what those labs can kind of offer to help those investigations.

Shane: Tangent now then. so samples of COVID, like, you know, during COVID they were sampling sewage water to tell that one person has got COVID in one suburb. Um, so in terms of technology, we’re talking about being able to detect almost nothing in a whole huge amount of crap. Uh, so was that your job?

Jacob Shaw: Fortunately not, or maybe fortunately. Um, but what we did in, in uh, MDU when I was working in that laboratory, um, was kind of a two stage process. So absolutely, you’re correct. Um, some, uh, labs would do that, sewage water testing, but then they would actually refer it to us. So. It would either be that we’d received the sample directly, not usually sewage water, but more the direct samples from patients. Uh, we’d start off with that diagnostic. Um, so step one was diagnostics. Either we did it ourselves or it came from that lab that was doing the [00:06:00] sewage. And then step two would be that whole genome sequencing, um, where we could start tracking. Getting that genetic sequence, um, getting our epidemiologists, bioinformaticians to analyze that data and kind of work out potentially where that transmissions come from, and, uh, maybe the origin of where, where that pathogens come from as well.

Shane: genome sequencing, that’s a term that. Yeah, we now throw around. But mate, 20 years ago, um, just didn’t happen. So from an eh o’s point of view, how do you keep up with technology in knowing what is possible and how quickly it’s possible or whatever. So yeah.

Jacob Shaw: Yeah, absolutely. I, I think this is the big discussion to be had. It’s, um. With eh hos. I worked, um, in far north Queensland for a bit, and the team there just, there wasn’t a lab nearby. There wasn’t that capability to do whole genome sequencing, so we’re quite limited in what kind of sampling we could do, or if we wanted to go further with [00:07:00] investigations, what we could do in that scenario. Um, but again, I think that’s why it’s so important to have a chat to those labs, have a chat to even your, um, coordinators, what resources you have available, um, of what kind of extent of testing you’d wanna do or what extent of investigation you’d wanna do. Um, but it’s also to, um, important to remember that not all labs do these kinds of things.

I think MDU is one of the only labs, um, around that do whole genome sequencing routinely, uh, for most samples that go through the lab.

Shane: So how long does it take now to do a.

Jacob Shaw: to do a whole genome sequence. Um, it’s, it’s actually not too long. Couple of days usually to get the, the full, um, sample to go through. Um, but then it can be quite a long time once that, uh, raw data’s gone through to the epidemiologist to really track or really interpret what that information means.

Shane: Yeah. There’s, um, a couple, uh, announcements that I’ve been just, uh, seeing lately just in terms of food poisoning [00:08:00] outbreaks in the US and it’s absolutely amazing now that you’re talking about being able to link something that’s on the east coast versus the west coast and whatever, and then trace it back to some, manufacturer in the, the middle of the country or whatever, based on genome sequencing.

And, um, and so it is. In one sense, like yeah, we talk about big data in terms of Facebook and Google or whatever, but we now live in the age of big data when it comes to germs and outbreaks. so it’ll be really, really interesting to see where this all heads in the future. Um, and from an e o’s point of view, you think you are operating in a single council in a single town or whatever.

And suddenly be going, oh, wait a minute. What’s happening here? What’s happening here? Um, so it isn’t really, really interesting sort of thing. So, okay. So what’s on your list in terms of what are the, the top ones that EHOs just need to know about and many of them aren’t aware of?

Jacob Shaw: yeah, so it’s, as you were saying with, um, that it can be tracked across the whole, uh, whole [00:09:00] state or the whole of Australia really. there’s these systems that, um. I think we use what’s called Oz, oz Tracker. Um, that does, that puts all that sequencing into that system so anyone who has access to it can track where those origins of those, um, pathogens have come from. Um, but from the EHO perspective, obviously. I think when you’re working in a lab, we’re not expecting any EHO to be a, a qualified microbiologist and know all of these things regarding lab testing. Um, but I think it’s important to, to remember to talk to those people, the people that have that experience and background and, and information.

And it’s funny when you’re working in a laboratory. Get to, to chat to the community and chat to eh hos as much as you probably would like to. Um, I think many scientists would be more than happy to have those conversations and, and spread that information to eh hos. but yeah, I think that’s, uh, it is use that lab and those staffers, um, partners investigate in investigations, not just [00:10:00] a testing service as well.

Shane: jargon. How about our, um, uh, scientists at jargon and what can eh hos do about it?

Jacob Shaw: I think it’s, yeah, a lot of jargon going on. Um, especially with the, the kind of world of microbiology. It’s very, very complex. It can be very difficult to understand. Um, but. It’s the kind of role of, um, those diagnostic people to be able to give that in information in layman’s terms, and, uh, keep it as simple as as possible. Uh, I’m sure there’s plenty of microbiologists out there that would go on for hours and hours regarding those, those specifics on testing

Shane: and then the role of the EHO is then to translate it even further down to something that’s meaningful to the public. having said that, some of the best talks I’ve ever heard from, um, at conferences are from microbiologists because it is such a. Interesting and, uh, bloody frightening, most of these talks, [00:11:00] uh, in terms of stuff that’s just, um, happening down at that level.

Um, so yes, if you ever get a, a good chatty microbiologist, go for it and get as much information as you like. Um, and then go and talk, go home and talk about feces to the rest of the family. And they go, no, no, this is too much information. So.

Jacob Shaw: Oh, absolutely. We, um, we see everything. We see absolutely everything in those kinds of labs. Like, um, saw whole limbs come through, uh, for pathology diagnostics. And we, we are kind of the first people to see these outbreaks starting to form whether. Um, we even had samples of, um, like things that you wouldn’t kind of expect to come through that would cause contamination.

Things like spices or dried herbs or, um, yeah, large, large batches of all kinds of things.

Shane: So what’s the most obscure?

Jacob Shaw: Most [00:12:00] obscure sample, uh,

Shane: Yeah.

Jacob Shaw: I dunno. It’s, um, I think. a lot of different bacteria, um, and viruses. A lot of people, like for example, you think about salmonella and you think about campylobacter, you immediately think about chicken. You think about raw chicken breasts, um, someone that hasn’t cooked something appropriately, um, or cross-contamination between touching raw samples and touching, ready to eat food, stuff like that. Um, but you’d be surprised to hear that a lot of those samples that are, um, positive to salmonella and stuff like that are. uh, fresh veggies and fruits that have been washed in contaminated water or during the farming process. It’s stuff like that. It’s, um, usually the case that, um, it’s not the chicken that’s, that’s called that salmonella outbreak.

It’s the other things.

Shane: Yes. Yeah. Chickens are going. Don. Blow mask. Yeah. Okay. So did you ever have a day in the lab where, uh, you know, either you were scared, senseless, you felt like ringing up the family and [00:13:00] saying, quick leave the country? Uh, yeah. Anything on the radar like that?

Jacob Shaw: Probably not. Um, anything to that extent. I think, um, you get quite desensitized in the lab. Like, um, obviously we have our PPE on our lab coats and our gloves and all kinds of things like that. Um, but we are dealing with pathogens that can, can cause severe harm. Like, um, for example, I, uh, worked a lot with, um, nicera meningitis, the, the. Bacteria that usually causes meningitis. Um, we, I also had to get, um, vaccinated with experimental vaccines for monkey pox, for example, when that outbreak came through. Um, so there was certainly a lot of cases where, um, pathogens would come through the lab that there are potentially, um, life-threatening, but that just becomes the kind of the normal, uh, day-to-day of the work when you’re a, a scientist in a micro lab.

Shane: Yes, could just imagine [00:14:00] some, uh, testing lab in Wuhan. Not that Wuhan is of any significance with a big red button on the wall that just says, shut down world now. And they’re going, oh. Oh, okay. So, um, any days where you’ve just walked out, uh, you know, sick, not sick, sick because yes, you’ve got the full PPE on, um, but yeah, you said you, you’re desensitized, but are there moments that just cut through?

Jacob Shaw: Absolutely. Um, oh God, I could, uh, mention so many, uh, examples of disgusting things I’ve seen come through the lab, um, without being too vulgar. Things like fecal samples in a huge. Pot or a jar that then we’ve had to open up in the lab instead of you, your average fecal pot or, um, as I said, getting full limbs in pathology laboratories.

If someone’s had an amputation ’cause of an infection, you’ll get the full leg and you’ve got to literally dissect that sample. Um, [00:15:00] yeah. And smells, smells are a huge thing. Microbiology, um, everything stinks. Especially you’ve gotta imagine. If you’ve got an infection or something that’s, that’s quite small, you’ve got that in small concentrations to then diagnose that or test that.

We’ve gotta encourage it to grow. So we put, uh, things in broths and all kinds of things to get those, uh, bacteria growing to a state that we can test them and they get very, very stinky. That’s for sure.

Shane: Okay, so before we leave the lab, the most important question, which TV show is the most accurate for actually. Standing life in the lab.

Jacob Shaw: That’s a very, very good question. what’s that movie? There’s a movie about outbreaks, contagion, I think it is, um, about an outbreak. I think the, the diagnostics and epidemiology side of things with that was pretty accurate. Um, when you go in, uh, if you ever do go to the Peter Doty Institute and see that PC four laboratory, they’re in those full inflatable suits, um, they have to get completely naked and, and washed [00:16:00] down and clean before getting into the suits into the laboratory.

So I think that kind of thing was pretty accurate.

Shane: Okay, and CSI in terms of accuracy score outta 10.

Jacob Shaw: Oh, forensics is a little bit different, but, um, I don’t know, maybe a, a six less, um, less scientists being out in the, in the field and, and getting those samples themselves.

Shane: Yeah, you didn’t get to carry a gun at all. Just kicked down a door and yeah.

Jacob Shaw: Absolutely

Shane: so because of the lack of guns and all that sort of stuff, you were so disappointed you became an EHO. Um, Now the second half is then as an EHO, you are now on the, the other side. So you are feeding into the, the labs and you know, then trying to use results or whatever.

So what are the mistakes that an EHO can make that will just totally undermine the work that they’re doing and what the lab can then do to help them?

Jacob Shaw: Absolutely. [00:17:00] And I think this is the major point, um, to chat about with fit, eh Hos is of course at the end of the day you’ve got those people to chat to about, um, learning about what the labs do, but it’s about giving those samples to the lab. That’s the super important part. Um, so kind of the first major thing, um, is with when you’re receiving a sample, um, it depends on how, uh, intense that investigation is. Uh, if you’re doing a normal sample, uh, there’s no chain of custody or of kind of prosecution in mind for that one. Um, the really important information we need is with your labeling. So you’ve gotta make sure that your sample. the exact same to what is on your request form as well. Often we would get samples that are completely unlabeled on the sample, but we get the request form.

We’ve gotta just reject it. You’ve gotta have at least three bits of information for the laboratory to accept that. Um, often in those cases you could potentially, uh, call up the lab and either come back and, and relabel the samples. Um, but it’s, [00:18:00] if you are using that evidence in court, it’s never gonna get through if they were not labeled. Um, and talking about court, um, chain of custody is super, super important, um, for any prosecutions that you want to go through with. Um, because the lab needs to know, the court needs to know exactly where that sample was sampled from, um, who had it in their custody, was it refrigerated? I, things like that.

Throughout the whole process, going to the lab and when we receive it in the lab as a chain of custody, we do the exact same process again in the lab. seal the items with, um, labels and um, security seals, and then we say if we’ve done a test on it, we’ve broken that seal at this time and this date, done the test, and then resealed at this time at this date, and only one person has had that sample throughout that period of time.

Shane: we did an episode with, um, uh, Jason Scarborough talking about if you’re going to court, what to expect. And, um, and so this is actually one of the key points is [00:19:00] you will be massively drilled on. Can you prove that that. Is that. And, um, and so as soon as there’s any doubt that evidence is thrown out.

Um, and he also then makes the point that, uh, as you’re collecting the data, you don’t know whether or not it’s gonna end up in court. Um, and so you can’t just suddenly go, oh, wait a minute, this is looking really bad. We need to double back and start collecting evidence again. You need to get it right the first time.

Um, so now as an EHO, um. You are now collecting, um, data, you know, collecting samples or whatever. we dunno which area we’re in. We dunno who you’ve worked with. do you think your standard of data collection is generally, or, you know, sample collection higher than what’s happening across the board?

Jacob Shaw: necessarily say higher. I think it’s more that, um, I’m much more conscious of where that sample’s going and what could, uh, could eventuate [00:20:00] it was gonna be a court case, um, like. So going back to sampling with labeling, I’m really specific on, uh, who’s sampled it, where it’s come from, dates and times, what the description of the item is, um, especially when putting that on the, on the forms as well. Um, but also with how I sample, from that microbiology background, but being an EHO now, um. Remembering about aseptic technique, making sure that you’re taking those samples really carefully, especially if, um, the item’s going through PCR for example, it’s super, super sensitive. So if you’ve got contamination on your hands, um, that, or you’ve touched your face and then touched a sample and it’s going through that laboratory, it’s, it’s highly likely you’re gonna get some kind of false, even false positive or false negative because you’ve contaminated that sample.

Shane: Okay. Uh, so let’s drill down on that. So, [00:21:00] um. What are all the, all the things that can go wrong? So you, you know, like you just said, then touching your face, touching whatever, and then touching the samples. Um, yeah. What else?

Jacob Shaw: Yeah, so, so contamination, especially if you’re, for example, you’re gonna take a water sample, uh, from a home, uh, potable water, something like that, making sure you’re decontaminating the taps and anything that’s touched the outside world. Um, we are wanting to test what’s in the pipes, not necessarily what’s on the tap. Um. Same with food samples. If you’re taking environmental swabs, make sure you’re taking them from food contact services and not bathrooms or toilets, um, stuff like that with aseptic technique for taking samples. Um, and again, yeah, just the labeling and making sure that you’ve taken that sample appropriately, and then you’ve tracked exactly where that’s come from and what you’re doing with it.

Shane: jumping back into the lab, were there ever cases where you just had to throw out the evidence and because of [00:22:00] that, You, you know, back in the, real world, someone got away with or someone could continue to do or whatever, you know? Yeah. How often did you see it pop up in the lab?

Jacob Shaw: Quite often to be honest, but often, um, depending on, again, the severity. Usually what we did, um, in that diagnostic lab was, um, we would determine the severity depending on if it was a chain of custody or not. If it wasn’t a chain of custody, often we’ll take a sample, realize, oh wait, you guys have missed some information on it. Um, we can call up the EHR again and get them to come back into the lab. Uh, label those samples, explain why that was missing on the sample, and document that, so that’s all documented. Again, if it’s a chain of custody, we take that a lot more seriously. So once that comes into the lab, often we’ll have to be face to face with the EHO, um, to say, okay, here’s the sample.

Is all of this information correct before we take it off your hands and sign to say it’s now in our custody? Um, and yeah, but often it would happen quite [00:23:00] often. So mislabeled samples again if it’s not as serious a case. Um. EHR can just come back and relabel. Um, if that wasn’t, um, kind of appropriate, if they couldn’t do that, uh, we would hold those samples until, um, the, the time period of whether they want to relabel it or reject it after that 48 hours. Um, especially going to, to timing a really important aspect as well is, um. you’ve sampled something, uh, it’s really important to keep it either refrigerated, depending on the sample and, uh, to get it to that lab within that 24 hour period, especially for water. Um, because after that, that bacteria in the sample will grow more and it’s really hard to determine whether that bacterial load is within that acceptable level, um, at the time of the sampling or later on.

Shane: so specifically on that one, any tips for, you know, if you’re in the country, um, you’ve got distance or, you know, it’s, it’s middle of summer now, mate. We’re hitting 40 degree [00:24:00] days. what are the practical tips for, you’re out in the field taking samples, but you’re not gonna get back to the office by the end of the day.

What, what can be done?

Jacob Shaw: Just always be prepared know, um, that as an EHO, anything can bloody happen. Uh, we can be out in the field and, and an outbreak happen or anything like that. Um, so you always just need to be prepared. Make sure that if you are going back to the office, you’ve got an esky on hand with ice packs, you’ve got your sampling containers, your sampling, um, your biohazard containers and bags and stuff like that. Just make sure you’ve got all that equipment handy or, or easily available. Um, to then grab that sample and then as quickly as obviously possible, get it to somewhere that it can either be refrigerated overnight. Um, usually most samples can be still submitted within 24 hours. Is, is the usual window, like fecal samples for example, can, um, can usually be stored for quite a long period of time.

Quicker to the lab the better. Um, but more with those water samples special, especially possible water, [00:25:00] uh, drinking water and um, those food samples we want to get. To the lab as soon as possible in those optimal kind of, um, temperature conditions.

Shane: Episode one, uh, Laura Muirhead in, um, Albury, uh, call Monday morning, um, and hamburger joint suspected food, um, poisoning outbreak. And so he’s literally rocking up. Having not been into the office, but heading straight onto site. Uh, and in this particular case, it was a major food poisoning outbreak. So, I can’t remember the exact number, but you know, over a hundred people, uh, ended up with food poisoning.

And so he’s suddenly on site And he’s prepared. He can take samples, um, and listen to the podcast. But a little bit of a spoiler alert is he walked in with one assumption, but because of his training. Tested everything and his assumption was wrong, but because he did the testing and had the, the records, uh, they were able to [00:26:00] then reliably determine what the, um, the cause was.

Um, and so really the take home message at the end of that one was. Make sure that you are prepared to be able to take a phone call at any time, rock up on site, and be able to do a reliable, um, test and sampling and make sure that everything’s in place. So, um, so just, yeah, repeating that message. Um, and so, yeah, so make sure that you’re prepared.

make sure that you, uh, label everything correctly. Make sure that you don’t cross contaminate. Make sure that you’re actually sampling what you’re saying, you’re sampling. Um, uh, make sure that you keep it under, um, control, both in terms of.

Uh, chain of custody, but in terms of, um, exposure to, to extremes or whatever, keep in mind the timeframes. what else? Any other hot tips?

Jacob Shaw: Um, know what you’re actually testing, know what you’re requesting on the test. [00:27:00] Um, for example, if you wanted to do like a, a heterotrophic, um, colony count, which is what we do for general, um, working out how much bacteria is in the sample. It’s not actually diagnostic, it’s just qua, uh, quantitative.

Sorry. Just knowing how much bacteria is in there. do that on yogurt. Um, it’s full of bacteria anyway. Again, a he heterotrophic colony count isn’t gonna help you in any investigation. Um. Just know what you’re actually asking for when you’re giving that sample through to the lab. Um, if you have a suspected pathogen that you think it might be, query that, tell the lab, say, Hey, I’m thinking it might be for example, with, uh, a pool of water.

It might be Cryptosporidium, something like that. Tell the lab, say it’s unknown, but we’re kind of querying, maybe cryptosporidium, um, just so that they know often, with some testing techniques, you’ll have a panel of, let’s say. with a gastro outbreak, um, a panel of a couple of bacteria and viruses on that PCR [00:28:00] panel. Um, if you’re actually suspecting it might be a parasite like crypto. Um, you need to tell, tell them, tell ’em that. Say, Hey, listen, uh, I want you to do that normal, uh, enteric, uh, panel, but we are suspecting it may be some kind of parasite or AMI or something like that.

Shane: one of the, um, big bastard questions I ask my team all the time is, um, is simply why. Um, so from a, diagnostic point of view, they’ll turn around and ask a question and I’ll turn around and say. Why are you asking that question? And I think that’s a really good one for, you know, if you’re going to a lab and saying, Hey, can you get, do all these tests?

Um, you need to understand why you are asking for that. Uh, which means that if this number comes back, what are you gonna do differently? Like if it’s this versus this, and if it doesn’t make any sense, then dig deeper and just make sure that you understand why you are asking a question, and if the answers are meaningless to you.

Well dig deeper and, and gain your knowledge. And if the answers don’t make any difference, [00:29:00] so what’s the bacteria load in yogurt? Well, that’s meaningless because it’s loaded with yogurt. Then don’t bother doing that test. Um, so why is always a magical one. Um, but the other aspect of why is going to the lab and saying, Hey, yeah, here’s all the tests and this is why we’re doing it.

And. They’ll possibly give you insight as to, well, wait a minute, if that’s what you’re trying to look for, that’s why you’re doing it. Have you also considered this? Um, so yes, why? Absolutely magical question. Every single test you’re doing, why are you doing that test? How is it gonna make a difference to the outcome?

Jacob Shaw: as an EHO, um, you’ve gotta make those risk assessments and try and it’s, again, it’s dynamic. You’ve gotta look at the situation and go, Hey, it could be this, but then it could have be five or six other things as well. Um, you’ve gotta make that assessment yourself as, as an EHO to then go to that lab and say, Hey, it might be this, but absolutely do that other testing as [00:30:00] well.

Shane: yes. Okay. Anything else on the list? We’re fully prepared for this podcast, by the way. We’ve actually got a list, uh,

Jacob Shaw: anything else on the list?

Shane: by way Jacob’s got the list, uh, mine over there. I can’t read it at the moment, so,

Jacob Shaw: Oh, too

Shane: yes.

Jacob Shaw: No, I think, um, that, that’s essentially it. Uh, as long as the hos know that, um. the general tips of, of sampling procedures. Um, know what you’re asking for in the lab. Know how you’re supposed to take those samples and how they’re supposed to be labeled. How you prepare those samples, um, to be taken to the lab, whether it’s chain of custody, stuff like that. And, um, always suspect. Um, it might not be simple, it might not be. What you expect it to be. You might be going to some kind of outbreak, and let’s say you’re, you’re chucking the entire pantry of an aged care to go get tested. It may not be that chicken, it may be that spice. You never know what’s gonna be the contaminated sample.

Shane: Okay. One final question, and this is unscripted. So this one I just thought [00:31:00] of. So we asked the question, what should EHOs know about, uh, people in labs, but now that you’ve been an EHO, what do you wish people in the lab knew about EHOs, but they don’t?

Jacob Shaw: 100%. I think, um, it goes both ways. Like a lot of eh hos won’t know what’s going on in the lab. A lot of lab workers have no clue what’s happening in the field personally. Uh, coming from hospitals to begin with, I was doing pathology and stuff like that, had absolutely no clue what even an EHO was. Um, it wasn’t until I started working those public health laboratories that I understood, um, the general process and what they’re actually doing. Um, but I think if you’re a scientist in the lab and you’re receiving samples from eh hos. Understand that they do make mistakes. I still make mistakes as an EHR as well, especially with labeling and stuff like that. Um, but I think there is a lot of, there’s two trains of thought. Um, there’s, there’s people in the lab that are microbiologists with that specific micro understanding and the eh o’s in the, in the field that have that [00:32:00] real, uh, focused risk assessment, understanding and not necessarily all that specifics with microbiology. Um, so I think people in those labs need to be, uh, understanding of that knowledge difference. I think.

Shane: Okay. I think that’s, uh, yeah. That’s been a awesome, conversation. Hopefully, uh. Yeah, anyone listening. I’ve been told I need to do a call to action at the end of each each, episode. But really, um, what are either the tips that, uh, every EHO knows, love to get your comments.

Um, and, um, where have you. Opportunity to get the real dirt out there. Uh, where have you just seen mistakes? Too many mistakes or whatever, or where it’s, um, had a cost. So, uh, wherever you’re watching the, um, the podcast jump on board and have a conversation, or we’ve got the LinkedIn, EHO knows, group going love to.

Have feedback as to what actually is happening out there. Uh, because a large part of the, the purpose of the [00:33:00] podcast is for you to be just talking amongst yourself. And so jump on board and share the stories. Uh, and if you’ve got a really good horror story, uh, yeah, come on and share it with, um, other environmental health officers.

Um, we’ll change the name for the sake of, you know, protecting the guilty. Uh, but yeah, if you’ve got a great horror story, let us know. Uh. Well now Jacob, thank you very, very much. Um, that’s absolutely awesome. And hopefully yeah, as a result of this, uh, we’ll continue to see lives changed and um, and good stuff happening.

So yeah, thanks a lot, Jacob.

Jacob Shaw: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.