EHO Knows: Return of the Rambo w/ Sarah Ainsworth

Shane: [00:00:00] welcome to the next episode of EHO Knows. gonna call the episode Rambo. We’re not gonna explain why, but it’s an in-joke, and if you happen to know where Sarah’s from, you’ll start to get an idea as to which restaurant we’re talking about. But it’s not a name and shame episode. This is the what would you do episode. It happened to me. I’d love to know what you would do. And I sort of dropped Sarah in the deep end with this one because I sh- shared it on Facebook and I said, “Look, this just happened to me. You won’t believe it. @Sarah, what would you do?” Sarah was silly enough to reply. And then I said, “Well, it happened to be in your area.” Oh, that’s… So Sarah Ainsworth, El Presidente of New South Wales EHA still, despite the uprising and the, the military coup, but still El Presidente. Welcome back, Sarah.

Sarah Ainsworth: Thanks for having me, Shane. Uh, yes, no, [00:01:00] definitely a lesson learned. Do not engage on the socials. Oh, but no, that’s good

Shane: No, no, that’s the wrong message. We’re trying to make a community where people do engage, do share stories, uh, and then get invited onto EHO because you’re gonna quick. Okay, so, so here we go. Here’s the story. Um, I’m traveling back from, uh, visiting the in-laws, and I stop at a roadside diner, um, which may or may not be somewhere near Goulburn. and, uh, it’s reasonably late at night. Uh, and so, uh, I go into this restaurant, and I order dinner. Now, fortunately for me, I ordered hot food, uh, which will become important as the story progresses. and once I placed the order, wife’s outside, this is a couple of months ago, so it was bloody cold, um, with our dog. And so I said to the waitress, “Hey, uh, is it okay if we bring our dog in?” And, and she goes, [00:02:00] “Oh, of course.” Uh, and at this stage, she goes above and beyond, and she reaches under the counter, and she pulls out a dog bowl, and she then goes and fills the dog bowl with water and hands it me. And I go, “Oh, wonderful.”

I go, um, uh, give the dog bowl to my wife so that, you know, the dog can have a drink, comes inside. Um, and that’s, that’s great customer service. Uh, my wife promptly looks at the, uh, the dog bowl, and she goes, “This is absolutely feral. Where can I change this water and actually put fresh water in?” Okay, so that’s the context of the dog bowl. Okay. The waitress was wearing gloves, she promptly then returns back to finishing what she was working on, which was the prepackaged sandwiches. And so straightaway she’s there back putting the, the cut sandwiches [00:03:00] into the containers. What are your thoughts, Sarah? I’m just going to drop you in the deep end

Sarah Ainsworth: I have a few thoughts. Um, obviously, not best practice. Um, but it does, it does raise the, the question, I suppose, um, you know, you’re in a position where you, you are trained to see the risks and the hazards, um, that potentially the general public might not pick up on or, or appreciate. Um, which is very much the same as when, um, us as EHOs are out in the field, um, but it might be after 5:00 PM.

So it, it poses that interesting question that, you know, when you’re trained in one of these professions that is, um, about seeing risks and identifying hazards and, um, you know, knowing what to look for, uh, do you switch off when it, when it becomes 5:00 PM, and, really dismiss that professional [00:04:00] responsibility to act when you, when you see something that, um, isn’t quite right.

Uh, so you’re, you’re one of those unique few in the, in the general population that would, would see some of these practices and go, “Oh, okay, red flag.” Um, using, using our gloves as a second skin, um, it is one of our, our common, um, food handling practices that can be a little bit troublesome in that people think they’re doing the right thing, but they don’t, um, often realize, you know, how many tasks they’re going between with the same pair of gloves on.

Um, which is why, you know, hand washing, um, is so much more beneficial because if you’ve got dirt on your hands, or you’ve touched something slimy, or you’ve put a dog bowl out, your instinct, if you weren’t wearing gloves, would be to wash your hands. But when you’ve got your gloves on, we do often find that food handlers have that, um, temptation that it hasn’t dirtied their hands, uh, so we keep the same, same pair of gloves on.

So, um, as bad as it was for you, not unique. [00:05:00] Um, but yes, we have paid a visit to that establishment, so I feel a little bit better about your experience, and hopefully that won’t happen again.

Shane: Yeah. Okay. But my experience doesn’t finish there, and your answer was, was very clean, professional. So, okay. So by this stage, she’s on my radar, and “Oh, okay, this is gonna be interesting.” So she finishes doing that, and then she goes out to the, cool room, opens, brings stuff out, does that. Uh, someone else comes up, places an order, so she goes over and she– so she’s, uh, serving the public. going out, she’s handling stock. but then she then continues making the next whatever it is. So she’s doing absolutely everything, and we’ve all seen it. Um, and you’re going, “Okay, that’s… Uh, okay.” Uh, but the pinnacle was they sell chips, like hot chips, and, um, and so [00:06:00] she, she took the tray out of the oven and just put it down. and a minute or two later, she comes back, she picks up the, the paper cup, she just grabs handfuls of chips and puts the chips in the cup. And it’s just like, I’m sure there’s a piece of technology that’s designed to help you move hot chips into a cup. Uh, and so… But I could

Sarah Ainsworth: One pair of gloves for the whole day.

Shane: But what I can tell you is I did not see a single pair of tongs anywhere. They did not exist. and she never changed her gloves, not once. Um, and so I was there for probably fifteen minutes watching. once. So, so the question, is, would you speak up? Is there a point at which you’re watching such bad practice that either you’d say, “Hey, you need to fix what you’re doing,” or two, would you go, [00:07:00] “Just cancel my order. I’m not eating anything that you’re producing.” Would you get to that line? Would you be brave enough to do that?

Sarah Ainsworth: Yeah, so I think, my view is, um, particularly if it wasn’t in my area, um, in that, you know, I’m visiting another LGA, I don’t have any authority to, to take action, so to speak. Um, but I think that there is a real difference between something that is technically imperfect and minor, and something that presents a genuinely and potentially significant public health risk.

Um, and certainly if something that I saw was relatively minor, um, I probably wouldn’t feel the need to intervene, um, because I don’t think that, um, EHOs or any regulators have the capacity to, um, you know, regulate the entire world when we’re not on duty. But if I saw something that had the potential to cause significant harm, um, to public health, I certainly wouldn’t [00:08:00] ignore it just because I happen to be outside my jurisdiction.

Uh, so I’d either say something politely to the business, if appropriate, or alternatively, if I didn’t feel, um, comfortable in doing so, uh, I’d report it to the relevant local authority. But I think that the key principle is that the standard of behavior that you walk past is the standard of behavior that you accept.

Um, and you know, I’m not sure about the, the training or the qualifications or anything, um, that this young lady may have received, but you know, obviously after hours, um, usually you’ve got a skeleton staff on. They may not have been trained to the same standard as the-

Shane: takes on a totally new meaning when it comes to food safety. Just putting it out there.

Sarah Ainsworth: Yeah, so,

Shane: I’m working the graveyard shift. I’m drumming up business

Sarah Ainsworth: Exactly. Well, you n- you don’t know what her side hustle is. Um, so yeah, I think it’s, it’s really important to, to understand that, you know, as much as it may not be, um, a comfortable [00:09:00] situation for either of you, um, given the behaviors and the food, the potential consequences from the food safety practices that you saw, um, if it were me, I would definitely say something, um, because of the implications of it.

Uh, you know- Yeah … there, there’s some quite serious offenses as well under, um, the legislation with regards to the, the behaviors that you saw. Um, and definitely would, would warrant intervention I think.

Shane: Yeah. So, so the magical question is, what would you still eat? Um, where would you actually go, at this, you know, either fix that or I’m walking.

Sarah Ainsworth: Ja

Shane: be really clear, in my case, uh, it’s a real cop-out because I’m happy not to say anything and have other people get food poisoning. if she was– if I was eating one of those sandwiches and she’s just handled the dog bowl, uh, which was feral, be going, “Look, I’m not eating that sandwich.

Uh, change your gloves. Start again.” Um, but with the [00:10:00] complicating factor that my wife’s there, she’s an extreme introvert. She hates being embarrassed, um, and so she’d go like, Um, so yeah, would there be a point at which you personally would turn around and go, “Mate, I’m not eating that. Just start again”?

Sarah Ainsworth: Absolutely. Um, I think that, you know, it’s, it’s important for us that do have the knowledge and the expertise, um, to, as you say, stand up, call out the behavior, um, provide, you know, some reasonable education while we’re there, um, seeing the practices and, you know, certainly I wouldn’t be wanting to have, um, been the person who came in an hour later and purchased one of those sandwiches, um,

Shane: Well,

Sarah Ainsworth: the

Shane: worse. These are likely to be tomorrow sandwiches, so

Sarah Ainsworth: back of the paper that you’ve seen. Oh, that could be lunchtime, um, given what was going on at that particular place. Um, but I think [00:11:00] that, that the reality is, as regulators, we, we come to these businesses once or twice a year. Um, we’re there for a very short period of time, um, and it’s, it’s difficult to ascertain, particularly if something like this isn’t occurring while we’re there, it’s difficult to ascertain the, the level of skills and professionalism and food sa- safety training or food handler hygiene during that really small window of time that we’re on premises.

Um, so whilst, you know, we can’t all be regulators and we, we can’t all intervene, um, we, we do have a responsibli- responsibility where we have the, the technical skills and the knowledge and, and the access to information that we all do, um, to certainly call out that behavior and, and, you know, make sure that we’re drawing a line as to when we would intervene.

Um, but I do understand, you know, the likes of your wife, who might be an extreme introvert, [00:12:00] um, simply put the information in the hands of people who do have the jurisdiction and the expertise to deal with it if you’re not comfortable. Um, you can, you know, there’s, there’s apps such as Snap, Send, Solve, um, and also the Food Authority email that you can, um, send those sorts of complaints to, and then that goes to the relevant local authority.

Um, but I think personally, um, it would be my position that minor issue, let it go. Something annoying, but inconsequential, probably let it go. Something that could genuinely compromise food safety and public health and, um, have an impact on someone further down the line, definitely say something or alternatively report it.

Shane: Was there a difference between newbie graduate Sarah and old hand experienced Sarah as to, uh, you know, young and fresh out there to save the world, zero tolerance, blah, blah, blah. hand Sarah, “It probably won’t kill me, so I won’t say [00:13:00] anything right now.”

Sarah Ainsworth: Um, yeah, I think there’s also a bit of a difference with, um, mum Sarah in that, um, you know, there’s much food that gets dropped on our floor at home that I go, “Oh, just wipe it off, it’s okay. Um, don’t worry about it.” So wouldn’t have done that back in the day. The five second rule, it’s all good. Even, um, you know, 10 second rule if we’re, if we’re pretty confident about the cleanliness of the floor.

Um, but the, the thing I would probably say is probably young graduate Sarah would’ve, um, been a little bit more, uh, reserved in, um, you know, willingness to speak up. Um, whereas now I wouldn’t be so, um, confronted by that situation, in that I’d be like, “Oh, hey, um, I’m actually an environmental health officer and, um, you know, this isn’t my area, but did you know…”

Or, um, you know, intervening would not be, um, such a big, big deal for me, um, now. But I certainly would [00:14:00] understand that there might be some, some graduates or some people who are new to the profession, um, or, you know, just different personalities that might not feel as comfortable in, in, you know, speaking up in those sorts of circumstances.

Shane: Okay, so, so total, total hypothetical because there’s no implication at all that Goldwyn is not a safe place to eat. But a couple weeks ago, you may or may not hypothetically have been in a place and then you’re watching someone exact glove scenario going down. And so in this particular case, what happened? Hypothetically

Sarah Ainsworth: So hypothetically, um, I was watching someone make my own sandwich, um, doing the exact same behav- allegedly, um, doing the exact same behavior that may have been witnessed, um, at your particular incident. Um, and I just, you know, very respectfully [00:15:00] said, “Hey, using your gloves as a second skin.” And, um, luckily for me, this poor young girl was absolutely mortified.

Um, and, and she was like, “Oh gosh, I’m so sorry. I never do that.” And I was like, “That’s okay. Um, but maybe we’ll start again. Let’s get a fresh pair and let’s kick off Sarah’s sandwich again, can we?” So hypothetically,

Shane: Hypothetically.

Sarah Ainsworth: that’s what happened obviously. Um, but yeah, you know, as I said, you know, regulators we- we’re in a spot, um, with our, with our regulatory hat on for a very finite amount of time.

Um, and it’s really important that, you know, you know, the community sees themselves as another set of eyes, and that they have a basic understanding of, you know, um, food safety hygiene and f- food safety handling practices, um, so that, you know, they can be our eyes when we’re, when we’re not physically there.

And, and you know, as regulators moving around [00:16:00] the state, um, or the country, you know, um, I think that where we have the skills and knowledge, um, to put into practice and to impart that on, um, our food handlers, if we see something that’s not quite right, I think that that’s a, a responsibility of ours too.

Shane: so yes, where they know you, there’s a nice little bit of, “Oh, okay. Yes.” Where they don’t know you… Um, and it’s also just, yeah, really, really interesting one in terms of, you know, is your role to, um, enforce or is it to educate? And what’s really cool about your story is she knew your position, and that small reminder is probably a big one. Um, and so you don’t have to go hard line. Um, what would be really, really interesting to know is whether or not it took effect. Um, yeah. And so next time it happens, you’re going, “Oh.” But anyway. Okay. Now, to complete the Rambo story, uh, this particular place has a, a feedback [00:17:00] in the middle of their, their store and, um, and you can go in and it says, “Hey, how did we go today?” Uh, and it’s got, you know, grumpy face, blah, blah, blah, up to happy face. I hit grumpy face, and it goes, “Oh, sorry to hear that. What could we do to, to improve things?” Uh, and so, um, I then typed in, some feedback. Uh, the irony is we’re talking food safety, and you’ve now got a tablet that’s been touched by absolutely everyone. Um, and slight tangent, the bathrooms in this place were absolutely feral. Um, and this is just outside the bathroom area. In their defense, that was the bathroom for the servo and not the bathroom for their facility. But their facility was being used by a couple truckies having a shower, and so they shut that down and all the customers were going into the feral one, um, which just is such a bad look.

Um, so [00:18:00] as I hit send, I do not know if this is the case or not. it’s not the case, the timing was absolutely lousy, their till dings. And at this stage, there’s now a second person, uh, a young lass who’s, who’s walked in, and, uh, she goes up and she reads it. reads it, and she looks at me. She goes back down to reading, and she looks at me, and then she goes reading. My guess is that that feedback goes instantly live back to the, um, the store that it was entered in. and she then goes and talks to the other woman, and they both look at me. So I am like… So at this stage now, what I am doing is one hundred percent watching them because I’m waiting for a super trooper moment where one of them is about to spit into my food because I haven’t got my food yet. Uh, go. but two things then happened. One, we had [00:19:00] ordered chips, and sure enough, um, it was the, the newbie, who went over and got my chips and put them in. And I’m going, “Okay, those gloves have only been on for two minutes.” yeah, they’ve touched the tool, not much else. Okay, the chips are hot.

They’re, they’re reasonably safe. But do you know what I didn’t see? The woman, the other woman never changed her gloves. It’s just like

Sarah Ainsworth: Second skin, right?

Shane: They’re second skin. There’s nothing wrong with these gloves. There’s a hole worn in here and there’s a, like… But these are still good I, uh, and it would actually be fascinating, yeah, where you see gloves. A- actually, from an, an inspection point of view, if you see staff wearing gloves, do you ever look in the garbage bin to see how many gloves are in the garbage bin?

Sarah Ainsworth: The top of my head, no. Um, probably [00:20:00] not. But in saying that, um, the number of premises that, um, use gloves, um, in our area is actually quite small. Um, most of our guys are, tongs or alternative methods. Um, but yeah, unfortunately the ones who are using gloves are not doing a great job.

Shane: Yes

Sarah Ainsworth: yes. Hot tip, do check the bins for, um, for, you know, that changeover, that, evidence of changeover, I suppose.

Shane: Yes. Uh, and up until now, I’ve done very few product placement ones or whatever. But, um, but, what makes this really, really bad is, yeah, I’m not an environmental health officer, um, but the product I sell is Glow2Show. It’s my product. We developed it, and it’s all about handwashing training. And I’m just watching this going down in front of me and just going, “Argh!” [00:21:00] Um, and so our goal is, you know, we will virtually just give Glow2Show away to you guys at environmental health offices, my goal is I want every single restaurant and cafe to own a Glow2Show kit with– and so every single person is just trained. Um, because, yeah, it’s the fundamentals. Like, it’s not rocket science, and yet the moment we have gloves on, yeah, we’ve got this second skin, um, and just hand hygiene just goes out the window. Uh, yeah, so blatant product placement there just in case you missed it. Yeah. Um, okay. So getting back to…

Sarah Ainsworth: the show top for, for food, food handler training, and we take it to the schools, um, when we do our presentations. And, um, you know, you can educate, you know, six and seven-year-olds on the importance of hand washing and good hand hygiene, um, with the use of [00:22:00] your product. Um, and, you know, if they can do it, people working in food businesses can too

Shane: Um, and I heard an amazing story from, Compass, um, food safety guy who used to work for, um, Spotless, and he joined Compass, and he moved to Angola. Uh, and this is on the rigs. And what they discovered was they went in, and they did hand washing training and inspect- and, you know, all the food safety stuff. uh, this is oil rigs, it’s men. um, and so men then went home and were starting to say to their wives, “Look, you can’t do this when you’re preparing food or whatever.” Uh, and they could actually demonstrate a impact on, uh, family health, uh, because by educating, in this case, it happened to be the men just in the basics who were then going home and teaching the wives the basics, that then flowed on to the whole family. Um, and it was [00:23:00] one of those really, really good, you know… Yes, as much as we hate large organizations, you can actually see the, the positive outcomes. and it’s basics. Um, and yet we get the basics wrong. Okay. So whistleblower, at what stage do you turn around? How bad does it have to be before you are, just picking up the phone on the spot or the next day and just going, “You need to be stepping in straight away”?

How bad does it have to be?

Sarah Ainsworth: Um, as I said, if there’s a, if there’s a real, um, risk to public health, um, in that, you know, the practices, you know, that are being witnessed or that have been reported, um, you know, are that significant that they could have a real impact on, on the quality of the food that is being produced or the, you know, the health of people who are consuming that food, um, then, you know, usually, um, once a complaint like that is [00:24:00] received by, by us, we- we’re there the very next business day

Shane: Um, at the same time, the standard in Australia is now so incredibly high. Like, you know, the chances of getting food poisoning anywhere, the chances of seeing bad practice is, um, low. from an EHO point of view, is the risk the other way of you just become too sensitive, you become too paranoid, you become too fussy

Sarah Ainsworth: And that, that’s what I mean. Um, you know, like something minor, I’d let it go. Um, but something that presents a real risk in that you can see, you know, cross, cross-contamination, really poor food handling practices, with your glove use. We’ve also got issues with allergens. You know, like what if someone, um, you know, had an allergy to something?

You know, they’re not, they’re not ensuring that they’ve got adequate separation or anything like that going on at the premises. Um, you know, there’s a flow-on effect, um, to bad practices that might not be, um, just as [00:25:00] evident as, you know, the, the general non-compliances. So I think that, um, you know, where we’ve got some obvious deficiencies in, in the food, um, handler training, um, which is evident when we’re, when we’ve got issues like this with glove use, um, I think it’s really important to, to get your EHOs on site as, as quickly as possible because, you know, it could just be the tip of the iceberg, um, with regards to, to what’s going on in store.

Shane: You sidestepped the question. Okay, so, so dou- so, so doubling back. Okay. So, um, uh, six months ago, I was talking to an environmental health officer, um, from my local area, which I won’t name. and said, “Which restor- restaurants do you recommend that I don’t go to?” Uh, and her reply was, ” Uh, I don’t eat at any restaurant the area,” because she knows what goes on behind the scenes.

Like, she’s… [00:26:00] But she’s, she’s more than happy to go to the next council over and eat there, uh, because she doesn’t know what’s going on. So it’s really just an, a case of that little bit of knowledge is, is now enough to go, “Argh.” Um, and then go, “But if I don’t know about it, I can comfortably eat it.” Uh, and then I’ve also had a guest on the podcast who just doesn’t eat out anymore because they know what goes on, and they know the risks, and so they’ll eat the food that they’re effectively preparing. So is there a risk, uh, that you just become so hypersensitive that you just see problems everywhere? Um, yeah.

Sarah Ainsworth: Um, that has a little bit to do with your own personality too, um, in that, yeah, I’d, I’m not sure whether it’s, it’s better or worse that, well, you know the intricate details of what’s going on. Um, but I think that, [00:27:00] you know, in our particular area, we have a handful of, of food businesses who perform poorly, um, at their routine compliance inspections.

Um, you know, I, I think that as you touched on the, the quality of, um-

Shane: sorry, just to warn you, Sarah, I am now gonna take that, “We have a handful of restaurants that perform poorly in food safety.” I’m just gonna make that the soundbite for this episode. That’s all that’s going to go out there. Um, and, and

Sarah Ainsworth: It’s true. Like, the, the, the vast majority, um, of food businesses in our LGA do an exceptional job. Um, they really do. And, you know, a lot of places where you, where you eat out, you can see directly into the kitchens. Um, you know, there’s nowhere to hide. Um, you can see most of their practices. You can see how their food’s stored.

You can see what, um, what’s going on when they’re doing their preparation, all those sorts of [00:28:00] things. I think that the, um, you know, the structure of a lot of food businesses and how they display, um, you know, effectively put their food handlers on display, um, has changed in, in, you know, the last 10, 20 years, um, in that, you know, the kitchen isn’t hidden out the back.

Um, you know, the consumer can see a lot of what’s going on. Um, but yeah, for me, I, I don’t, I don’t have, um, I don’t share that same view of, of not being able to eat out, um, in my local area. I think that, you know, the vast majority of, of our guys are, are doing a really good job. And yeah, there are a handful that, um, have some, have some minor, minor non-compliances, some that have a, a few major ones and might potentially end up on the name and shame register.

Um, but all in all, I think that, you know, most of our food handlers, um, you know, across Australia, our EHOs are doing a great job in, in [00:29:00] making sure that, um, those businesses are compliant and, you know, do, do the right thing most of the time.

Shane: Yes. I’ve also just reflected back on your answer as to, “I’m now a mother,” and I was, I was expecting it to be, “I’m now a mother, I’m much more aware of what’s going into my kids or whatever,” as opposed to, “I’m now a mother, I know what’s going into the mouths of my kids, and they’re still alive.” Kids survive.

People are tough. Like, so

Sarah Ainsworth: Kids are tough. L- look, um, the reason that I, I say that I’m probably a little bit more relaxed since becoming a mother is that, um, you can’t always control what your children consume and put in their mouth. Um, and, you know, food that’s fallen on the floor is probably some of the, the better end of things that particularly my l- young- youngest would put in his mouth, um, during the course of any particular day.

So yeah, motherhood [00:30:00] made me

Shane: of

Sarah Ainsworth: more relaxed. This is gonna be terrible for the profession.

Shane: This is gonna be my most watched episode because of all these great… Yeah. Mind you, 500 views by the, uh, Goulburn legal team is probably

Sarah Ainsworth: Yeah.

Shane: Yes

Sarah Ainsworth: if anyone knows of any jobs going around

Shane: Daycare, you’re

Sarah Ainsworth: Yeah.

Shane: work with

Sarah Ainsworth: No

Shane: put this in your mouth

Sarah Ainsworth: I do look after my children, I promise.

Shane: Yes. Okay. So, so there you go, the Rambo episode. We might also call it NIMBY, which stands for Not In My Backyard. the upshot was I did leave feedback and it’s all been addressed. hopefully they [00:31:00] don’t recognize me for when I return just to see if anything’s changed. Um, yes, so there you go, Sarah. Thank you, Sarah, uh, who is now my, most frequent guest. Um, which my call to action, if you never wanna see Sarah back again, please volunteer to get onto EHO Knows. We’re always after great stories. Um, or what would be even better is leave comments going, “Hey, Sarah, you’re a legend. Um, and keep up the good work.

Um, we are never visiting Goulburn, but that’s okay.” So, uh, thank you, Sarah.