EHO Knows: Dunn Explaining w/ Louise Dunn

[00:00:00] Shane: Hi, welcome back to the second half of the interview with Dr. Louise Dunn. Now, in the first half, we covered why. You know, why she did this thesis and why she came up with this framework as to helping EHOs explain what they do. And in this second one, uh, if you’re not an environmental health officer, then, um, you know, there’s no horror stories in this episode. Uh, I actually suspect that it doesn’t matter what profession you do, there’s a large amount of this framework that can actually apply to describing what your role should do. Uh, so it’ll be interesting to see who does actually listen to this one. In this one, I’m gonna go, uh, educational, and I’m gonna be looking at what the framework is, what are the parts are, why they’re important, um, and not really dive deep, deep into exactly what it is because I’ve only got thirty minutes.

[00:00:54] Um, so here we go. Uh, welcome back, Louise. Um, okay, so the framework. Do you… Does the framework have a name? What should I Google?

[00:01:05] Louise: Okay, that’s interesting. Well, at the moment now, or now, it’s been ca- been, uh, called the Dunn, um, Professional Practice Framework for Environmental Health

[00:01:17] Shane: Okay

[00:01:18] Louise: Yeah, because it’s become from my PhD thesis, uh, that’s sort of the name that it’s now sort of been adopted. Uh, and it’s also been called, like, a holistic experiential description or practice, which is [00:01:30] a bit of a mouthful.

[00:01:31] While the, the earlier, I think the, the version of just being a, a professional practice framework for en route to health, um, and my name there because I’ve developed it

[00:01:40] Shane: Yes. So, just a little bit of a plug, it’s been picked up by

[00:01:47] Louise: Oh, okay. So Environmental Health Professionals Association, uh, have actually adopted as part of their strategic framework, which is a game changer, I think, because it starts to now go to that implement sta- im- implementation stage. It’s not just talking about it. They’ve decided to adopt it, to implement it, to underpin their, their strategy, which is terrific

[00:02:09] Shane: Cool. Okay. So I’m gonna pick up on two different aspects of it and just talk about the terminology and why it’s important and what it means. Uh, so you basically have four categories and themes.

[00:02:23] Louise: Yes

[00:02:23] Shane: What’s the… Yes. Okay. And so you’ve got this beautiful diagram, which we’ll put up for anyone who’s watching the video.

[00:02:30] Louise: Yeah

[00:02:31] Shane: and for anyone who is just listening to the audio, sounds like this. Okay. So, um, you’re gonna have to jump on Google at some stage and look for it so you can see the pretty diagram. But, we’re basically talking about, uh, four different, uh, categories of what um, EHO does. Now, to be really, really clear, we’re not talking about water, food, blah, blah, blah, blah. We’re talking about, protecting, helping, collaborating, leading and innovating.

[00:03:06] Louise: Yes

[00:03:07] Shane: and so I would say that we’re, we’re not focusing on how you do the job. You’re more on, on what you’re doing vaguely. Now, we talked about this before the interview, and we’ll, we’ll dive into it a bit more, but that’s the way I think about it, is we’re not telling you exactly how to do your job.

[00:03:27] We’re not telling you to go in with this checklist and do this. We’re not telling you to dip in a pH meter and measure this. Instead, we’re saying, “Oh, by doing that, you’re acting as a protector.” Um, and then when you step back and you go, “Oh, look, your pH is wrong in your sushi, you need to be doing this,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you’re stepping from a protector role into a helping role.

[00:03:52] so it’s that sort of concept. Okay. So protecting, helping, collaborating, leading and innovating. Uh, protecting

[00:04:00] Louise: Okay, so protecting from harm is the first category within given boundaries. So what that does is describe one way a pr- a practitioner may operate. Now, this is not one way better than the other categories. It’s just a way that they may operate depending on the situation and context. So the idea with the protecting category is that it describes how you may act, and the given boundaries relate to, as a practitioner, you fundamentally have your professional training.

[00:04:29] You have your, um, that you know, get from university about, you know, law- Micro, all those different things that we learn about, that’s the professional knowledge that you need. You also need your own organizational knowledge about what the expectations are of your organization around that protection when you go in, and they’ll have, um, your own policies about how you may deal with and when you may escalate something.

[00:04:50] So if it is a high-risk type of situation and you’re in that protecting category, um, you might be looking at going down to compliance, gathering evidence. There’s enforcement work. There may be education involved, uh, but it’s more a sort of like a, an approach that you might take saying, “Listen, you know, you need to, to, you know, rectify these things by doing X, Y, Z.”

[00:05:11] So it’s more of a sort of that sort of very fundamental role that you may have depending on the nature of the risk that you’re dealing with. So that’s what protecting, and it describes, uh, even though we had that conversation before, it does describe how you’ll go about your work. Then when you look at the framework, you’ll see the things like the impact approach, uh, outcome, agency and role.

[00:05:34] So they are what we call the themes that connect all the categories together. So the reason why this is what we call a holistic, um, description of practice, it, it shows not just practice as a whole from protecting right through, it also shows how the prac-practice connects together to create the whole practice.

[00:05:55] So going back to that protecting category, um, if we sort of drill that out again, [00:06:00] how do you go about doing that work is when you approach it, you’re really looking at applying those, those professional br-boundaries about thinking about, um, you know, how do you engage in this process? Well, as a practitioner, you have to be reasonably sort of straightforward with your communication because this, this could potentially end up in, um, maybe a, a court scenario.

[00:06:21] We’re hoping not, but you need to collect evidence. You need to be very clear about note-taking, about understanding the legislation you’re working with, your powers of entry, all those sort of things. So you have to approach it in a very sort of like, um, you know, that sort of, I would say, more sort of formal manner, so to speak.

[00:06:36] Um, the other thing you might think about, well, what is the outcome I’m trying to do here? So you’re really trying to prevent or stop, you know, harm. And I think that’s the other thing that we d-don’t always talk about practitioners, about what are we trying to do here? What are we trying to achieve? So our impact is that we’re trying to, you know, to protect the, the community, and the impact is that, uh, ultimately that, that business will survive.

[00:07:00] But that’s that sort of impact that you might be having on, on people that are engaging with that at that localized level The next thing is about, you know, talking about your agency in that situation, um, is that, you know, your agency is fairly limited here. It- you don’t have a lot of scope to do other than work within those professional boundaries, and that’s when we talk about agency.

[00:07:20] You know, how much freedom do you have to make decisions about what goes on? Well, your freedom’s pretty limited, I think we’d all agree, because we really need to be able to say, “Well, this is a risk. It’s a high risk. I have no option other to take this particular action.” And the other thing is, like, what sort of role do I adopt here?

[00:07:37] Well, this is the more the enforcement role that you are having on when you’re, you’re o- operating in this category. You are an enforcer. The educator is still there. We don’t throw the education out, but that’s probably more fundamentally how you’re operating given the nature of the context. So what you said before is quite rightly so.

[00:07:55] The idea of this, it doesn’t matter if you’re dealing with food, you’re dealing with wastewater management, you’re dealing with a nus- nuisance complaint, a communicable disease outbreak. You know, fundamentally, even in an emergency s- situation, your probably first response will be protect from harm and see what you need to do to contain that, that, that protection.

[00:08:13] Uh, so… And I think the other thing with that category, and this is where we have to also recognize ourselves as practitioners, you know, we could be find quite, find ourselves quite challenged when working in that role. People aren’t always happy when you come in as that enforcer. You might have some resistance to, to people, um, in you having that role.

[00:08:33] Um, they’re not happy that you’re there. “Well, what have I done wrong? Am I gonna get fined?” Uh, so there is a little bit of our own, um, need to debrief about that too, you know, about any sort of harm to yourself as a practitioner, and that’s what that category also helps that conversation, is to say that, yeah, sometimes it can be tough as a practitioner.

[00:08:52] And then you may even go back into your local, you know, um, in, in your actual organizational setting, and they– a- and you may, [00:09:00] uh, find that they’re not so happy to take that compliance action, that, you know, you find something that really does need to take that, um, you know, that sort of maybe that legal compliance, and you might not always get that support for that in your organization either.

[00:09:13] But that sort of describes that category and how you may operate in that way.

[00:09:18] Shane: Hey

[00:09:19] Louise: Does that describe your work?

[00:09:21] Shane: you just totally academic-ed out there,

[00:09:24] Louise: Sorry.

[00:09:26] Shane: and, and because there was just like of, of gold

[00:09:31] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:31] Shane: just going bang, bang, bang, taking it all for ga-granted. Uh, just spent too long on your thesis. Um, so what I’m gonna do

[00:09:38] Louise: Yeah

[00:09:38] Shane: I’m gonna repeat everything that you just said

[00:09:41] Louise: Yeah.

[00:09:42] Shane: Um, so, so the reason for that is because I’d say that the role of protecting is

[00:09:48] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:49] Shane: EHOs would take for granted. Uh,

[00:09:51] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:51] Shane: you then did was you, you just ripped through your five themes. Um, and so, and, and it was really, really fascinating because you’re just going bang, bang, bang, bang. Um, so, you’re talking about protecting.

[00:10:07] Here’s what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to protect. And then you said, “But wait a minute. You need to keep in mind the outcome, impact, approach, agency, and role.”

[00:10:16] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:17] Shane: And so just for the sake of listeners, outcome, impact, approach, agency, role.

[00:10:23] Louise: Well

[00:10:25] Shane: please explain each of them one at a time as to it’s so important that you consider that. Um, and we’ll talk about the role of protecting again. So

[00:10:38] Louise: Yeah.

[00:10:38] Shane: start with?

[00:10:39] Louise: Yeah, so the reason I actually went quickly through those things is, one, I’m conscious we’ve got only 30 minutes, but, um, secondly is because because this is the how. We, we talked about the what,

[00:10:54] Shane: Yep

[00:10:55] Louise: I think before you talked about, like, what, you know, protecting, but this is actually about how you do it.

[00:11:01] So this is the part where we get into, particularly for professional development, how we might develop in these areas, and this is what I said connects throughout all the descriptions, and how you might switch from being a protector to a helper. So the, each of the themes are describing that. So for example, for the first one, um, your role.

[00:11:25] Role’s always, I think, easy to understand. Is when you’re protecting from harm, you know, what’s your, your, your prime role here is you are an enforcer So that is primarily what you’re doing, and you have your enforcement hat on. And when you have your enforcement hat on, that also relates to then how you’re going to approach the situation.

[00:11:47] Okay, so what you’re doing when you’re enforcing, you’re approaching that situation, is that, you know, you’re looking at to apply your sort of legislative knowledge, your understanding of risk. You’re looking at approaching it in a way that documents your, your documents evidence. You know, how are you engaging with your pro-proprietor or whoever you’re dealing with when you’re protecting from harm?

[00:12:12] And you’re often sort of dealing in that very clear communication. You’re taking down notes, you’re trying to recall what’s going on because this could be a, a, you know, a situation that, um, might escalate into, um, you know, some… You know, could end up in court, for example. We always have to think that that might happen.

[00:12:29] So that’s how you’re approaching it in that very sort of, uh, methodical way. So you’re an enforcer, you’re approaching it in that sort of very methodical and drawing in all your knowledge, um, and the skills that you’re sort of focusing on there. The next one is you’re thinking about, well, what impact am I having?

[00:12:46] Why am I operating like this? Is because the impact I need to have is I could be impacting on communities if I don’t do my job correctly here. My impact is I am trying to contain this situation so we don’t end up with a, a massive food poisoning outbreak. I’m just trying to… You know, my impact here is really that localized, um, you know, community that I’m dealing with.

[00:13:06] Um, and the next one then is, as I said before, is your, your a- your agency then is to also recognize that your agency is fairly limited, that when you’re working in that way, your agency is, is, is pretty much, you know, I’ve got my boundaries of practice here. You know, I, I have to be sure of the evidence. If it’s, say, a microbial contamination, I need to be fairly certain that that will protect harm.

[00:13:32] Uh, if it’s a problem around sort of temperature control, I need to be fairly accurate that that’s not operating within the temperature that’s going to keep that food safe. So I can’t make up a different temperature. My agency’s limited. I need to work within those professional boundaries. Also, around being ethical, uh, about, you know, taking accurate evidence, uh, about explaining myself properly, about, um, also giving my…

[00:13:58] For example, even things like, um, if your organization always requires you to produce a photo ID or have your camera turned on, that’s what the organization wants, and that’s what I must do as well as part of my, the protocols of how I approach this. So that sort of really describes the how of the job.

[00:14:15] The what is about, you know, what we do as practitioners, but this is how you would describe how you would go about that

[00:14:23] Shane: Is there a difference in learning style? Uh, well, first of all, are you a detailed picture or a big pers- big picture person?

[00:14:31] Louise: Um, bit of both actually. Bit of both.

[00:14:34] Shane: It would

[00:14:35] Louise: Mm-hmm

[00:14:35] Shane: to know within the industry, are people more detailed oriented or big picture? Um, because like almost the reverse in the order that you approached it in because I would, I’d say, “Hey, what’s the, um, impact that you’re trying to achieve or avoid?” Which then means that, well, what’s the outcome that we’re trying to achieve? Which then moves back to, okay, so what’s the approach that I’m going to have, and what’s the role that I need to take on? Um, but you started with the role and went for approach and blah, blah, blah. Um-

[00:15:12] Louise: Well, I look, you know, it can go either way. I think it just depends how it works. Sometimes I do switch it around because some people feel like, “Oh, what’s my role here? Oh, I’m an enforcer. So if I’m going to be enforcing, then these are the things that I’m doing.” Or as you said, the way that you’ve gone about it is absolutely fine as well.

[00:15:27] There’s no hard or fast ru- rules here. It is, um, what’s, what is the, um, the outcome I’m here, or I’m, I’m looking to protect from harm because we have a high-risk situation. So it really doesn’t matter which way you describe, you know, how you might approach the job. It’s about sort of what works for you and understanding how you work and operate when you’re protecting from harm, and how you understand what you’re doing, and how you’re going about, um, you know, protecting, you know, in, in that sense

[00:15:55] Shane: So, uh, jumping backwards and forwards, uh, uh, protecting and helping, I think, are two easy categories because most EHOs would now agree that that’s part of their role.

[00:16:06] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:07] Shane: so if my, impact is I don’t want food poisoning, and so then you go, “Okay, so what am I trying to achieve?” Uh, so the, the outcome is I want safe food practice happening. Uh, well, there’s two ways I can achieve that. I can either step in as an enforcer and do an inspection, [00:16:30] or I could step in as an educator. Now, so when I step in and do an inspection, I’m primarily an enforcer, but I’m also an educator at the same time. so there’s a little bit of overlap in terms

[00:16:46] Louise: Ooh.

[00:16:47] Shane: even just doing one thing. Um,

[00:16:50] Louise: Yeah, look, look, I think the, the categories aren’t, like, discrete as such. Sometimes you might find in a situation you might be drawing on all three categories or four categories, depending on what the situation demanded. But I think the, sometimes the change is when, for example, in the protecting category, uh, is that you’ve had, uh, a number of opportunities during the helping ca- category.

[00:17:13] You’ve gone along, you’ve done that executive role, you’ve gone and you’ve done your inspection, you’ve looked at some non-compliances, you’ve been working with a food proprietor, you’ve t- tried to develop this relationship, which often help… is in the helping category. It’s about building positive relationships.

[00:17:28] It’s about building trust. And then you might find that something has escalated, and really this non-compliance is becoming more serious, and then you sort of back down to that protecting category. Look, you know, we can’t… This is a serious, starting to become more serious. We need to sort of go back and operate it like that.

[00:17:46] So, which sort of brings me to this idea of expertise. So, expertise, as I see it, is your ability to know when to help and when to enforce And you sometimes may, depending on the context and the circumstances, go a little bit between those categories. I think a lot of EHOs, as I said earlier, like the helping, but at times you do have to enforce, and then as a, from an organizational point of view, is having those discussions on when it’s really important that you do take on that enforcement role as opposed to that sort of helping.

[00:18:20] Because the, the different outcome that you’re trying to achieve with the helping category is that you’re trying to, um… And then what I’ve found through my research, that the basic thing, which is where you’ll see that, um, helping to create a sustainable, healthy, sustainable community. And that works two ways because one, practitioners, when they’re sort of in that helping category, have got the lens of, “We want this business to sustain.

[00:18:44] We would like to come in here, and it’s all risks are self-managed. I can’t be the protector and tell people what to do. That’s not going to sustain, um, a healthy community. We would like the, the proprietors to understand what a risk is, to be able to educate their own staff about when that risk happens.

[00:19:01] We’re helping to help and facilitate that. Um, if we have a premises that has, um, language and literacy problems, find resources to support them and, um, giving that to staff, help in any way we can.” And that’s where, like, the, the approach is a little bit different. It’s a more, um, you know, talking and just that building that trust and, “How are you going?

[00:19:23] How’s your family? Look, how’s, how’s your business going? You know, what’s been happening on the weekend? Do you get many people? You know, is the festival on?” And all that sort of thing. And then, you know, talk about, “Look, you know, your fridges don’t seem to be having the right temperature here. Who’s checking them?

[00:19:37] Let me have a look at your logbooks. You know, what’s, what’s happening here, and have you got problems?” And I remember from one of my own experiences when I was looking at, at a premises and I started speaking to, one of the ladies in charge of the logbooks, and I said, “You haven’t been writing anything down.”

[00:19:53] And she, she hadn’t, didn’t know how to read or write English. She was just told that she need to… And she was feeling it by, you know, touch, hot and cold. So it’s those types of things in the helping category. But that needs resources, and it needs time. And that’s where I think the struggles come in for environmental health, is where at the organizational level, we’re not good at explaining why we need more resources than just being the tech, you know, checking the tech li- to, you know, the compliance, “Yes, it’s working.

[00:20:20] No, it’s not.” Because ultimately what we’re trying to do as a practitioner here is the outcome we want is for our communities to thrive, for businesses to, to work, for business to, um, come to the, uh, EHO and ask them for some advice when something’s not working and be there for the, the community. So that’s the difference between the categories, but that just depends on the context and the circumstances that you have to be able to operate in that way.

[00:20:48] Shane: Your comment about, it takes time and it takes resources. I used AI yesterday to come up with a bunch of questions from, you know, five thousand questions. but this is one that it did ask, and, um, and I was thinking, “Oh, interesting,” but you’ve brought it up, so I’m

[00:21:03] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:03] Shane: it in.

[00:21:04] Louise: Yeah

[00:21:05] Shane: health really suffering from a professional identity problem? Um, or is it suffering from a visibility and resourcing problem?

[00:21:14] Louise: Both. Absolutely both.

[00:21:16] Shane: the answer.

[00:21:17] Louise: They, they absolutely both. And that’s, and that’s a- another motivation. Now, I would argue now this framework provides practitioners with a professional identity, and I’m going to be doing a, a workshop at the conference coming up about developing your professional identity through the framework.

[00:21:33] So now I think what we have is a good way, what do I do as a practitioner? Will I protect from harm? It helps sustain the community. I collaborate with partners to get optimal health outcomes, and I lead and innovate to, you know, help create our future. That’s what I do. And then within those, you can talk more about it, and I could talk very quickly if I had to, if someone said to me, “Well, explain from an emergency management context what you do.”

[00:22:00] And these are what I would call our, our signature descriptions. No one else has done what I’ve done with their professional group, and no one else can talk to as an, uh, uh, a practitioner group that we do those things. So professional identity, um, is not something you’re given. It’s something that you develop over time after you are sort of immersed in that particular, um, uh, sort of occupation or profession.

[00:22:27] And we develop our professional identity through our experiences, but we’re not good at explaining what we do, and that’s what this description is about, is helping practitioners explain more easily what they do in a, in a way that perhaps hopefully resonates more with the community, uh, and the way we deliver that.

[00:22:46] So yes, professional identity is important, and I think that’s what the framework does.

[00:22:50] Shane: I would also argue though, it’s interesting that, um, reflect back upon, you know, the role. Um, and so, you know, your example of, fire protection, whatever. Uh, I would suggest though that the b- more you understand the impact, that’s

[00:23:09] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:10] Shane: do, h- and so how you do it is, is the role. But, uh, yeah, uh, CEO of the council, whoever it is, what do you do?

[00:23:22] Louise: Well

[00:23:22] Shane: the impact that you do. Um, and the role is just a title that sort of comes along with it. Um, me putting my marketing hat on. Um-

[00:23:33] Louise: Yeah. I think if like, if you said to a c- and like it was interesting, I, I actually… Someone asked me to explain practice at, uh, the conference a while ago. Like I said, “I don’t think you can… The problem with environmental health, you can’t explain it in like from a marketing point of view in three or four words.”

[00:23:48] And I said, “Well, actually, I would challenge you on that because as environmental health, I would say is about protecting, helping, collaborating, leading, innovating. And the outcomes that you [00:24:00] have or the impacts or the outcomes or the, whichever way you wanna use it, is that the impact I have here is I’m protecting the community from harm, from getting sick.

[00:24:08] I’m helping to sustain bus- businesses by stopping those harm from happening, by helping to educate. Um, you know, I’m trying to create optimal health outcomes by collaborating with different agencies when we’ve got a problem, for example, in food poisoning that might span the whole community. We work with microbiologists to try to detect the source and, and prevent it from actually getting to our shops in our local communities, and I have a prime role in that.

[00:24:32] And also have a bit of a leadership because now I’ve formed a group with, um, a whole range of other practitioners, and we’re trying to, you know, develop better communication on why that’s a particular problem. So, you know, I have a very varied role and, you know, core to our practice is the, you know, the protection from harm.

[00:24:48] But this is what we do across different spectrums, and I just think they’re really good handles and way to describe the area that goes beyond just the compliance. And, and I think people resonate with that. They can see, “Oh, okay. Um, yeah. Good.” I hope.

[00:25:06] Shane: Yes. Okay. So we’ve now, uh, talked about protecting and helping. Um, now you’ve also got it as circles. Um,

[00:25:16] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:18] Shane: helping around,

[00:25:19] Louise: Yep

[00:25:20] Shane: leading, and innovating. Um, obscure question, why circles and why not a table?

[00:25:26] Louise: Because it’s a holistic resp– [00:25:30] understanding of practice. So what the circle means, and if you have a look closely at the diagram as well, is core to our practice is, um, protecting from harm. So that’s really core and fundamental, and that’s probably, you know, the core of the work and where it stems from.

[00:25:48] And if you then look around that circle, you’ll see that it’s quite a solid circle, and that’s that boundaries there. That really they’re the very core. Uh, that’s what we do as practitioners. We work within those boundaries of practice. But branching out from that, as we gain more experiences, a more comprehensive understanding, we then sort of branch out into that helping category, and that’s where you have the…

[00:26:13] If you look at this, the diagram again, there’s like those sort of, um, small little… Don’t know how to explain that now. Just the little sort of connecting, like little breaks in the… And that’s where we’re saying, um, we’re sort of changing the boundaries here a little bit. I need to get the diagram up myself.

[00:26:28] Uh, the boundaries are changing because what we’re doing is we’re sort of adapting our practice to that, um… And they’re like little small little, um, breaks in the, in the actual boundary diagram. But what we’re doing there is basically, um, you know, that was also the, the next part of our practice. That’s as we grow and we broaden our experiences and broaden.

[00:26:49] So it’s more of a, a holistic. It’s not just, you know, up or down. It’s really, it surrounds what we do here. And then as we move further out, and as you can see, um, on that [00:27:00] diagram, you’ll see that our role, impact, agency and outcome, those things start to expand as well. So our role is expanding. Our ability to be agency is span- expanding.

[00:27:11] Um, so as you move through, and the ci- circle is just trying to depict that, is that we’re, as we get more experiences and understanding, our ability to, uh, uh, be more comprehensive in our understanding and what we do also expands. Um, so, and it’s not just like we go from one to the other. You just keep building on these things.

[00:27:31] To the final category when you go to leading and innovating, um, really that is a expansion beyond. You know, you can, you can lead and innovate. There’s no boundaries here. And practitioners see themselves as that. You know, we, we could lead and innovate. We could lead other professions about what we do.

[00:27:47] Like it’s, it’s, we’ve got no, no boundaries here, and that is sort of up to us as, as a profession to take ourselves that way, that way. So that’s why it is in a circle, because it’s just showing how our practice expands as we get those experiences and have more comprehensive understanding of what we do as, as practitioners.

[00:28:08] Shane: So it’s experience building upon knowledge, giving you wisdom, and so then we’d argue that you’re in a better position to be leading.

[00:28:17] Louise: Mm-hmm

[00:28:18] Shane: so graduate versus someone who’s been in, industry for 30 years,

[00:28:23] Louise: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:24] Shane: should a graduate be expecting to do in terms of the, uh, four, uh, different [00:28:30] categories?

[00:28:30] Louise: See, that’s really interesting. I think, um, as a graduate, we probably will operate more on that protecting because you haven’t experienced the, the non-black and white nature of practice, and that’s where the helping comes into it. That idea that, um… and that sort of all, all that jack-of-all-trades sort of understanding as well.

[00:28:49] So protecting, like anything, you know, you have these rules and regulations, and you may have been exposed to sort of some problem-solving s- scenarios. But hopefully if the diagram and my work is being used to train, which is my next, is that they’ll have a much better understanding of what to expect because they would’ve been exposed to scenarios where they would’ve applied these different ways of approaching practice.

[00:29:12] But if, um, a graduate, until they really get tho- that experience of operating these different ways, they’re probably more looking at that protecting. But you might have some graduates that have had a lot of different experiences of other contexts. They might be able to have already more developed, um, skills around working in that hel- helping category.

[00:29:31] They might be a good communicator. They may have empathy. Um, they may have the ability to sort of see the non-black and white nature. But again, hopefully if we train within this, this context, they’ll be better at that. But you might see a new graduate having elements of all categories, but not as developed as somebody that may have worked across these categories and had different experiences.

[00:29:54] Now, having said this as well, the interesting thing that you b- well, um, made a comparison with someone [00:30:00] that has worked for 30 years. Now, there’ll be some people that have worked in the industry for 30 years and have always worked in a protecting category. You might have someone that’s been out for five years and have very comprehensively worked across all categories.

[00:30:16] So that’s really another probably more personal thing as well, is your ability to develop, um, and engage with these different ways of experiencing. Um, so hope I’ve answered your question here, but you know, I think if you’re very new to the practice area, you, you might have elements of each of these, but the idea would be to professionally develop, so eventually you expose to experiences, say, you are operating in across all sort of categories.

[00:30:44] Shane: Yes. Uh, and even as a graduate, you’re stepping out with knowledge, like just basic food safety or water or whatever it is. You’re, you’re stepping out with knowledge, and you’re talking to people who are working with that but don’t necessarily have that knowledge. And so you don’t need experience to be, leading in terms of you know what you’re meant to be getting across, uh, or collaborating with others.

[00:31:12] So in one sense, you’ve got sufficient knowledge, uh, but like you said earlier, uh, you need to know where things are a little bit gray or whatever. And so it’s easy to go racing out with black-and-white knowledge and suddenly be hit with reality. Um, at the same time, you’ve got sufficient [00:31:30] knowledge that other people need to know. Um, so it’s an interesting mix there

[00:31:34] Louise: Well, I think that this is the idea, is this– if you even dive down, um, into the really … The, the thesis describes each of these categories in a lot of depth. And even for a student to read those categories and understand, oh, wow, the complexities of practice. The framework, I mean, we’ve got the diagram, but a lot of the, um, the narrative that sits behind that is quite in-depth, and it does explain the non-black and white nature of, of practice, or give them sort of insight into that.

[00:32:03] So when you leave a university context, and I, I said, hopefully, if you’ve been working within the framework, it’s not gonna be completely new to you. You, like, have an understanding of, um, those sort of different ways of operating and some of the challenges you might feel. So because it’s been based on the lived experiences of practitioners, it aims to really present the reality of practice as opposed to what we often, um

[00:32:30] If you have a look at the in health matrix, it will describe the types of knowledge and skills that you need. You need, you know, science, you need law, you need communication, uh, and these are all important knowledges that you need to have and the skills around communication and, um, uh, problem-solving, all important skills.

[00:32:51] But it doesn’t explain how you apply it in practice, and that’s where you talk about the theory practice divide. [00:33:00] Whereas what this has done, it has flipped it the other way. So what I’m really arguing as well is that if we identify with a framework as a practitioner, if you think this represents your practice, yay,

[00:33:13] Shane: the industry it doesn’t take it

[00:33:13] Louise: tick.

[00:33:14] This framework is relevant to you. Then when we’re protecting, what skills and knowledge do we need to protect? What skills and knowledge do we need to help? What skills, knowledge, and attributes do we need to collaborate, and do we need to lead and innovate? Now, I’ve done a bit of a mapping with the in-health matrix across these categories, and it really fits beautifully because what it does, it says, okay, protecting, we need all these skills around, you know, microbiology, et cetera.

[00:33:46] But in helping, clearly the helping, what strategies we need here are the health-promoting ones, is understanding behavior change, of understanding the social determinants of health, understanding what might not help people, um, in terms of gaining compliance, and that’s when we apply those knowledge and skills in that helping category.

[00:34:08] When we look at collaborating, what are the knowledge and skills that we need there? We need systems thinking. We need to understand what other players are involved in dealing with environmental practice, the role of, um, you know, different organizations and so forth. Uh, and interesting, in the leading and innovating, uh, category, there’s not a lot of much in the in-health [00:34:30] matrix, uh, around those types of, um, things that we need to develop, and I think that’s also open to sort of thinking like, how do we train around the leading and innovating?

[00:34:40] What sort of knowledge, skills, and attributes do we need there, but what, where do we need to develop? So as I said, it sort of flips it around the other way about, shows a way to apply the knowledge and skills in practice as opposed to saying, “Here they are. Go out and apply them.” So it’s really what I would call context independent in that, you know, it doesn’t matter what you’re dealing with in environmental health, as I said earlier, whether it’s noise or nuisance or wastewater management or chemical disease control, look to the framework and, um, as I said, expertise is the way I see it, is not how much knowledge and skills you have, is your ability to know when to protect, when to help, when to collaborate, when to lead and innovate, or when to sort of switch between the categories.

[00:35:26] That’s what expertise as a professional is, um, to me, according to the framework

[00:35:32] Shane: Okay, so sales pitch time for the framework.

[00:35:34] Louise: Yes

[00:35:36] Shane: here we go. All the different ways it can be used. Um, if you’re a graduate, you wanna know what you need to do, where you can head, and so it’s a beautiful map of, of that, and it’s… You can say, “Yes, I’m starting here.” If you’re bored senseless in the job, you can actually go, “I’m gonna look at this, and I’m gonna try and expand out to something like that.” Uh, if it’s a team leader, it’s something that you can take back and use to help assess your team, but it’s something that you can then talk with your team about how they can grow. Um, it’s something that you can understand so that you can then, uh, verbalize to your management or to the public as to what your role is. Um, and it’s something that just helps you sit down one day and go, “Damn, I know a lot. didn’t even know I did these things.”

[00:36:29] Louise: Mm-hmm

[00:36:29] Shane: so a- as a framework, it’s, uh, really useful anywhere in your career, uh, working with, uh, seniors, juniors, whatever the m- case may be, and it’s knowledge helping you to communicate. Uh, how was that for a plug for the framework?

[00:36:46] Louise: I love it. You’ve just ticked it all up. Yeah, beautifully. And not, in, in non-academic speak, which is even better

[00:36:54] Shane: Yeah. and

[00:36:55] Louise: No, that’s great. No, it’s perfect. And we’ve got the visual diagram. The visual diagram is like a marketing tool. You know, put that around. Mm-hmm

[00:37:04] Shane: and so there you go. That’s a taster. Um, and so once again, if they wanna Google it to find it, what should they look for?

[00:37:12] Louise: Uh, I think the thesis, the done professional practice framework, my next stage is I’m gonna– I will develop a website. I’m working with EPA and with, um, developing some resources to supp-support the community. So, I think probably once I get a, uh, a website, [00:37:30] that might be the easiest way to find all the resources.

[00:37:32] Uh, but yeah, just Google, you know, professional practice environmental health, my name, this will come up, the thesis will come up. But the framework is for everyone, so my ultimate goal would be for, um, the– all professional associations to, to pick it up. Um, at the moment, which is quite exciting, I’ve been speaking with the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health.

[00:37:54] They’re really… Their workforce development team, really engaging with the framework, really like it. The more they think about it, I think the more they can see it can be useful in the UK context as well. Uh, so yeah, Google the framework, and, um, hopefully, I said I’ll have a, a website. But now being in my professional voluntary capacity, I feel I have got a bit more time to focus on this than I did with the demands of working full-time and managing a, a, a program.

[00:38:21] So that’s what I’m, I’m hoping. And, and it is disruptive thinking. You know, it is a different way to think, and I just hope people are disrupted in their thinking and, and engage with it because I think it’s important way, and I think it does solve a lot of our problems around, pa-pa-particularly around professional identity.

[00:38:38] It is our identity here, and we need some words to describe, um, practice, and I think that’s what it’s, it’s for. Like describe what we do, um, that can resonate with, you know, different groups and practitioners and all sorts of things.

[00:38:52] Shane: Thank you very much. So, so there you have it. Uh, double episode, uh, me stepping into [00:39:00] academia rather than ripping yarns. Uh, hope you found the episode useful. Uh, leave comments as to, how do you communicate as to what you do? How do you understand what you do? Uh, how do you think this could help?

[00:39:12] And, um, yeah. Please share. Thank you very much. Talk to you again soon. Thanks, Louise

[00:39:18] Louise: Thanks, Shane