EHO Knows: Historical Hygiene w/ Barry Palmer

[00:00:00] Shane: In this episode of EHO Knows, we’re gonna look at the history of, of hand hygiene, going all the way back to the dim, dark ages of Neanderthals. Probably not, but going all the way through up to modern times and what are we doing in terms of hand hygiene and having a look back. What’s the good? What’s the bad? What’s the ugly? to sh- take us through this episode of history, I’ve got Dr. Barry Palmer, and who better to teach us about hand hygiene than Dr.

[00:00:33] Shane: Palmer? Uh, here we go. Barry, who are you? Where are you from? And why are you the best person to teach us about the history of, of hygiene?

[00:00:45] Barry: Thanks, Shane. Um, I’m Barry Palmer. I’m a associate professor at, uh, Massey University’s, um, School of, uh, Health Sciences in, uh, Wellington in New Zealand. and I don’t know that I’m the best person, to tell you about hand hygiene, but, um, it, it’s an interesting subject,

[00:01:05] Shane: the subject

[00:01:06] Barry: one that affects us all.

[00:01:07] Shane: here

[00:01:08] Barry: And, um, has come into

[00:01:10] Shane: Come

[00:01:10] Barry: focus a little bit more, I think,

[00:01:12] Shane: I think,

[00:01:13] Barry: since the pandemic, uh, where there was quite an emphasis

[00:01:16] Shane: an emphasis

[00:01:17] Barry: washing your hands properly and

[00:01:18] Shane: properly

[00:01:19] Barry: a good amount of time doing it,

[00:01:20] Shane: time doing it,

[00:01:21] Barry: and, um,

[00:01:22] Shane: and,

[00:01:22] Barry: making sure your hands were clean. Uh, and just really reinforcing the fact that,

[00:01:27] Shane: fact

[00:01:27] Barry: we can spread diseases from one person to another, and one way to slow that down, at least,

[00:01:33] Shane: is, uh,

[00:01:33] Barry: to wash your hands properly, um, you’ve been to the toilet, before you prepare food or before you, uh, if you’re a healthcare worker, before you’re interacting,

[00:01:44] Shane: with

[00:01:44] Barry: or other things that, um,

[00:01:47] Shane: that,

[00:01:47] Barry: might be involved in spreading diseases from one person to another

[00:01:51] Shane: Really interesting though is like we live in an age where everything you just said then we just take for granted. Of course, you wash your hands after you go to the toilet. Of course, I want my surgeon to wash their hands. as we’re about to discover, you don’t have to go that far back to be going, “Well, wait a minute, I’m not gonna wash my hands. I’m a surgeon.” it… But also at the same time we’re going, how did we manage to survive up until now without sanitizer?

[00:02:20] Shane: Like, you know, the human race should have been wiped out millions of years ago because we never had access to hand sanitizer. Um, so we’re just gonna balance the all the stuff that we now take for granted we never did, but we’re still here. Why? Um, and what were the alternatives? Uh, mind you, one of the alternatives was death. Um, so yeah. Okay, so let’s go far back. Where would you like to start? Let’s, let’s go as far back as, I don’t know

[00:02:50] Barry: y-you mentioned Neanderthals and, um, have no idea whether they washed their hands or not, but I suspect they probably did, at least on occasion. and it may have just been because, you know, your hands are all covered in gunk, even for a Neanderthal, that probably wasn’t very pleasant.

[00:03:09] Barry: If you’ve got some nice clean running water nearby,

[00:03:12] Shane: Why,

[00:03:12] Barry: wash all the gunk off? And, um, yeah,

[00:03:14] Shane: And,

[00:03:15] Barry: then if you’re going to,

[00:03:16] Shane: you’re going

[00:03:16] Barry: piece of wooly mammoth,

[00:03:17] Shane: manner,

[00:03:18] Barry: a much more enjoyable experience.

[00:03:20] Shane: Oh, I was just gonna say we’ve always been closely linked to water. So humans love water, we love the ocean, we love rivers. Um, and so there’s one sense that were always close to something that would be occasionally cleaning us off. and it’s not until, you know, we moved further and further away into extreme environments that water availability became an issue. So in one sense, we started clean, um, and then made life more difficult for ourselves

[00:03:48] Barry: Yeah, I mean, the, there’s a, a school of thought that, um, reason that we’re naked apes is because we spend a lot of our time in water around in lakes in, in Africa. and that having a lot of fur like chimpanzees and gorillas, were– was, uh, an impediment to that lifestyle and therefore we, we lost a lot of our body hair

[00:04:13] Shane: Okay, so we started in the bath. Okay,

[00:04:16] Barry: Yep

[00:04:16] Shane: on from Neanderthals then. yeah, what’s the next step?

[00:04:19] Barry: Well, um, th-there is, good evidence that, uh, i-in South America, maybe up to seven thousand years ago, a group of people called the Mapuche people were using, um, natural plant products which, st- um, sudsed up quite well, um, to wash their hands.

[00:04:39] Shane: their

[00:04:39] Barry: And,

[00:04:40] Shane: And,

[00:04:41] Barry: reason we know about this is because, um, the, um, plant that they used, um, is called soap bark, and their word for, for that plant, um, means to wash.

[00:04:53] Barry: and so they, they used it, um, for washing themselves and probably other things as well

[00:05:00] Shane: so it literally is a soap type product. It,

[00:05:03] Barry: Yeah.

[00:05:05] Shane: yeah.

[00:05:05] Barry: Yeah. Yeah

[00:05:05] Shane: and so your, your partner would not be as smelly, um,

[00:05:10] Barry: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:12] Shane: gross.

[00:05:12] Barry: Yeah

[00:05:13] Shane: And so, so definitely been in use, uh, but it wasn’t soap. So it wasn’t something that they made, it was something that was naturally occurring.

[00:05:21] Barry: Exactly. Yep. But, uh, yeah, but a v- a very similar to, um, you know, some of our liquid soaps, um, that we’re using today

[00:05:30] Shane: So throwing you totally in the deep end. Uh, do we find natural herbs all over the place? Like, if we go into any of the older societies, you know, are they, are there just natural things that, women have always known about?

[00:05:48] Barry: The simple answer is yes, although I can’t off the top of my head, , name them. But there d- definitely are quite a few plants that contain compounds called saponins, are soap-like, detergent, um, chemical properties that will help get dirt o- out of your skin, and wash it away. So em- emulsifying, those, um, dirty things that, uh, you’ve contaminated your skin with,

[00:06:15] Shane: Just getting with,

[00:06:15] Barry: and washing them away, uh, in the presence of water

[00:06:18] Shane: Let’s start making life a little bit easier for you. Let’s start moving into recorded history. , Where do

[00:06:24] Shane: we start to see the

[00:06:25] Shane: introduction of hygiene?

[00:06:27] Barry: in recorded history, um, the Babylonians, , definitely, had very similar to the soap that we’re using today, and that’s relatively easy to make. So if you, um, mix animal fat, uh, with wood ash, is quite alkaline, and boil that together for a wee while, um, then you get something very similar to the soap that we’re using today.

[00:06:50] Barry: instead of animal fat, you can substitute vegetable oil such as olive oil or palm oil, that gets you a slightly higher quality of soap. So,

[00:06:58] Shane: soap. Soap. Um,

[00:06:59] Barry: the chemistry of making soap is not,

[00:07:01] Shane: is not,

[00:07:02] Barry: difficult, and you could

[00:07:03] Shane: and you

[00:07:03] Barry: think of probably how it happened was, um, you know, if you’re roasting, a side of beef over an open fire, you get an awful lot of fat and tallow dripping out of it into the ash.

[00:07:13] Shane: ash.

[00:07:13] Barry: you then take some of that and accidentally put it in water,

[00:07:17] Shane: in

[00:07:17] Barry: lo and behold, you, you find

[00:07:19] Shane: you find

[00:07:20] Barry: that it has actually got some quite good cleaning quality,

[00:07:23] Shane: qualities to it.

[00:07:24] Barry: but, um,

[00:07:24] Shane: But,

[00:07:24] Barry: interesting thing about the Babylonians was

[00:07:26] Shane: that there

[00:07:27] Barry: evidence that they actually used that to wash themselves.

[00:07:30] Barry: But there is evidence that they used it to wash, um, textiles, um, you know, probably woven wool and things and,

[00:07:37] Shane: and,

[00:07:38] Barry: uh, maybe textiles that they were making.

[00:07:42] Shane: Okay. Is there truth to… heard the story that it was the old, temples, sacrifices, and so you then have, coming off that mixed with the ash. Any truth that there was from sacrificial system that we ended up with soap as opposed to your mutton story?

[00:08:02] Barry: could well have been. Uh, but, interestingly related to that, one of the, um, reasons for, um, undertaking and, and other bodily hygiene, um, was for religious and sacrificial purposes. So the idea was that if you,

[00:08:19] Shane: you, uh,

[00:08:20] Barry: cleaned yourself, you purified yourself

[00:08:23] Shane: yourself

[00:08:24] Barry: you went and undertook religious ceremonies or,

[00:08:27] Shane: or,

[00:08:27] Barry: presented a, a sacrifice at the local temple,

[00:08:30] Shane: temple, um,

[00:08:31] Barry: ritually pure, so you’re spiritually pure.

[00:08:34] Shane: ritually pure

[00:08:34] Barry: Um, so, not so much,

[00:08:36] Shane: so

[00:08:36] Barry: to clean yourself up and get rid of any diseases you might have been carrying, but,

[00:08:40] Shane: but, um,

[00:08:40] Barry: ritual purity.

[00:08:41] Shane: of purity.

[00:08:43] Barry: that’s an aspect of,

[00:08:44] Shane: of,

[00:08:45] Barry: many religions

[00:08:45] Shane: So definitely . 3,000 years ago, you had a strong concept of clean and unclean. clear concept that, the unclean make the clean unclean. and so, so here’s the process to become clean, but the moment you did this, this or this, you became unclean.

[00:09:04] Shane: So, Whereas yes, you couldn’t have something clean touch something that’s unclean and make it clean. so we’ve got that concept of corruption . any other religious texts? .

[00:09:16] Barry: I’m not, , aware of any specific ones, but I’m sure there are. , I think ritual hand washing and, uh, other cleanliness routines are part of, um, Islam, know, washing yourself before you undergo, religious events, uh, is, is quite common in many religions

[00:09:35] Shane: Yes. so , next stop off in our, our history journey here

[00:09:40] Barry: next one to look at probably is the, um, the Greek, physician who was the doctor to one of the Roman emperors. . Um, yeah, so he was, um, a, a keen advocate of using soap, which is, which is now sort of coming, uh, to, um, a, a bit more regular use. And, he was, uh, very much in favor of using soap to wash,

[00:10:06] Shane: and wash,

[00:10:06] Barry: not only your hands, but your whole body.

[00:10:08] Shane: body.

[00:10:08] Barry: And,

[00:10:09] Shane: And,

[00:10:09] Barry: he saw that as being a very good thing for,

[00:10:12] Shane: for

[00:10:13] Barry: maintaining health and, um, you know, cleaning the body up,

[00:10:17] Shane: Body up,

[00:10:18] Barry: um, to make sure that,

[00:10:20] Shane: we’re So this is where things start to get really weird though, because like, uh, so you’re saying Galen, soap, it’s a really good idea. I was recently in Rome, what Rome’s really famous for is all its baths. Um, or, you know, the Roman Empire, wherever they were, they had baths. So 2,000 years ago had a really, really good cl- concept of washing. you’re saying that they’ve, you know, here, use soap. That’s a really good i- thing to do for your health. Um, then means that as we progress, um, you know, this concept of having soap being reintroduced, uh, it’s just really, really weird that we had that knowledge, we had that common practice and maybe we shouldn’t call it the Dark Ages, we should just call it the Smelly Ages, because now we had to reintroduce it, you know, couple centuries later.

[00:11:19] Shane: Okay. So Romans, they had a daily bath. what else did- were the Romans doing that were– was promoting hygiene and health?

[00:11:28] Barry: certainly bathed regularly, whether it was daily or not, I’m not sure. But, um, and that probably varied depending on your station in life. But the, the interesting thing is that most Romans and Greeks didn’t use soap to wash themselves. they, um, slathered themselves with oil, um, olive oil often, ’cause I think it was relatively cheap and readily available.

[00:11:51] Barry: Uh, and then they used something a bit like a blunt sickle. . Uh, strigium, I think it was called. And they used that to scrape the oil and the dirt off, and then would go and plunge in the bath to sort of finish things off. But yeah,

[00:12:05] Shane: yeah,

[00:12:05] Barry: the use of soap was, was not a particularly common, uh, occurrence.

[00:12:10] Barry: The normal thing to do was to slather yourself in olive oil and then scrape

[00:12:15] Shane: then scrape the,

[00:12:15] Barry: the dirt off

[00:12:16] Shane: and so you’re really dirty, just dig a bit deeper. Um, wow, what a, what a funny concept. mind you, having three boys, the concept of here’s a stick, we’re gonna clean you up, um, yeah. . Yeah. Okay. Okay. So Romans, oil

[00:12:35] Barry: Yep. Yep.

[00:12:35] Shane: Um, it, it was interesting though just talking about, uh, classes that the, um, the baths back then, they were public baths. Um, and so you could be a slave, you could be free and poor, you could be rich, but the whole public had access to, um, a bath. Um, but yeah, they all had it. The, there was just that assumption that everyone had, was entitled to a bath. so yes, uh, Monty Python skit, you know, apart from what did the Romans ever do to us? Oh, the aqueducts. Oh, it was terrible before the aqueducts.

[00:13:12] Shane: Yeah. So okay, so, so sticks, oil. anything else the Romans did or next step in history?

[00:13:19] Barry: oh, well, yes, just one other point. Um, Ga- Galen, uh, as I said, was, was keen on soap, and apparently the best soap wa- was made by the Germans, and the next best thing was made by the Gaul. The next best type of soap was made by the Gauls. , Maybe they just had, um, the procedure for making soap,

[00:13:36] Shane: Sorry,

[00:13:37] Barry: a fine art

[00:13:38] Shane: before

[00:13:38] Barry: in, those countries.

[00:13:40] Barry: But so yeah.

[00:13:41] Shane: Okay,

[00:13:42] Barry: S-

[00:13:42] Shane: Asterix is just coming to mind. So not only did they have the

[00:13:46] Shane: magic potion,

[00:13:47] Barry: just, yeah,

[00:13:47] Shane: had

[00:13:48] Barry: uh,

[00:13:48] Shane: soap.

[00:13:50] Barry: yeah.

[00:13:51] Shane: So, Obelix probably

[00:13:53] Shane: didn’t smell that bad. Uh,

[00:13:55] Barry: No.

[00:13:56] Shane: yes

[00:13:56] Barry: was unhygienic so that it smelled the worse, wasn’t it?

[00:14:01] Shane: yes Um, and hopefully everyone listening to this podcast understood all of those jokes, and hopefully the next generation coming through hasn’t missed out on Asterix. Um, that would be a

[00:14:15] Shane: tragedy.

[00:14:17] Barry: Yeah, so, um, with the decline of the Roman Empire, the access to good Roman baths fell away, and, probably hand a, to a certain degree did too. Although I think, it w- there was probably a reasonable, adherence to that depending on your station in life and your religious beliefs and that sort of thing.

[00:14:37] Barry: at the time of the Crusades, there’s,

[00:14:39] Shane: there’s,

[00:14:40] Barry: some mention of,

[00:14:41] Shane: of, um,

[00:14:43] Barry: Crusaders bringing back,

[00:14:45] Shane: back,

[00:14:45] Barry: um, soap from the Middle East,

[00:14:47] Shane: Middle East,

[00:14:47] Barry: um, made from palm or olive oil,

[00:14:49] Shane: olive oil,

[00:14:50] Barry: um, and that sort of got a bit trendy with the upper classes.

[00:14:53] Shane: classes.

[00:14:53] Barry: but then later on, that sort of fell away again, and there was a, the feeling, um, probably up until the 19th century, um, that,

[00:15:03] Shane: um,

[00:15:03] Barry: um, washing in warm water was not a very good thing to do.

[00:15:07] Barry: In fact, um, was probably a bad idea ’cause, uh, some doctors thought that it opened your pores u- up and let the disease in.

[00:15:15] Shane: so I- I’ll just backtrack slightly,

[00:15:17] Barry: One

[00:15:18] Shane: and then go forwards. So, so we’ve got some really interesting things happening because, uh, uh, you mentioned the Crusades, fundamental in Islam is, is cleansing and, , and so now as, you know, uh, it was in the Old Testament from an, religious point of view, Islam is is really, really strong on, on cleanliness and, and hygiene. And so now you’ve got the, the growth and the spread of Islam, and so a lot of what we’re talking about is, well, actually it’s the Europeans just totally dropping the ball and, and stuffing it up.

[00:15:55] Barry: Um,

[00:15:56] Shane: To the point where, like you said, um, we’re going, “Okay, no, washing your hands is really, really bad because it opens pores and bad stuff happens.” Um, how bad did we get in Europe, like in terms of dodgy practices?

[00:16:09] Barry: um.

[00:16:10] Barry: yeah, I You know, the, the spread of the plague in Europe, um, uh, is a pretty devastating thing and not necessarily, um, as a result of bad handwashing. But, um, you know, the fact that something like 25 to 50% of the population died of plague, is, you know, totally out of, you know, um, know, normal, idea of things, isn’t it?

[00:16:36] Barry: So, um, uh, yeah, so, uh, uh,

[00:16:39] Shane: Well,

[00:16:40] Barry: to, it’s hard to know, you know, what, proportion of the problem, um, lack of handwashing . But it was a gener- a general cleanliness thing in that, you know, spread by rodents and fleas.

[00:16:51] Barry: easy to do in, in some of the big cities that were, um, coming to, into play in Europe at that time

[00:16:59] Shane: Well, I suppose that’s a key point is that cities are becoming bigger and bigger, dirtier and dirtier. You know, sewerage is now becoming a major problem. To the point where London became so big that, you know, the entire area becomes a cesspit. Um, so as much as, uh, starting to forget about hygiene or whatever. We’re making bigger and bigger problems for ourselves because cities are becoming bigger, , combined with the fact that we’re introducing faster ways of getting from place A to place B, so therefore we can take rats from part– place A to B, um, or fleas or whatever the case may be.

[00:17:36] Shane: So, so we’re just making life harder for ourselves, um, and introducing all these fun and games. Okay. So, so downhill trajectory. Now we start to get into the good news, the, the growing awareness. Okay. So, so please, little bit of good news

[00:17:53] Barry: So around about, uh, in the 1820s, Hungarian, um, physician called Semmelweis, made an observation that, uh, in the hospital that he was working in, there was a big contrast in the mortality rate between,

[00:18:11] Shane: When,

[00:18:12] Barry: two m- maternity clinics.

[00:18:14] Shane: clinics,

[00:18:15] Shane: um,

[00:18:15] Barry: one had quite a high mortality rate of around about twenty percent,

[00:18:19] Shane: 20%,

[00:18:20] Barry: and the other one had a much lower mortality rate of around about seven percent.

[00:18:24] Shane: 7%.

[00:18:24] Barry: And, um,

[00:18:25] Shane: And,

[00:18:25] Barry: by observing what was going on,

[00:18:27] Shane: going on,

[00:18:28] Barry: came to the, uh, the idea that the, the clinic that had the high mortality rate,

[00:18:33] Shane: rate,

[00:18:33] Barry: was very common,

[00:18:35] Shane: common,

[00:18:35] Barry: for the doctors,

[00:18:36] Shane: the doctors,

[00:18:37] Barry: to,

[00:18:38] Shane: to, uh, be

[00:18:39] Barry: autopsies in the morning, and then they’d go and,

[00:18:42] Shane: and

[00:18:43] Barry: to their pregnant patients in the afternoon, and they wouldn’t bother to wash their hands.

[00:18:47] Shane: their hands.

[00:18:48] Barry: Uh, whereas, um, those that,

[00:18:51] Shane: that

[00:18:51] Barry: in the second clinic, um, that practice was not so prevalent.

[00:18:55] Shane: So

[00:18:56] Barry: So he came…

[00:18:57] Shane: came,

[00:18:58] Barry: even though,

[00:18:58] Shane: though, um,

[00:19:00] Barry: they may have washed their hands,

[00:19:01] Shane: their

[00:19:01] Barry: they d-

[00:19:02] Shane: they–

[00:19:02] Barry: their hands still smelt o- of dead bodies, uh,

[00:19:06] Shane: bodies. um,

[00:19:06] Barry: So, um, so he brought in the,

[00:19:09] Shane: in the,

[00:19:09] Barry: the idea that they would use chlorinated lime, uh, as a disinfectant to wash their hands in and really

[00:19:16] Shane: really

[00:19:16] Shane: s-

[00:19:17] Barry: hands well, um, before they, uh, went into the maternity clinics.

[00:19:23] Barry: And,

[00:19:23] Shane: And,

[00:19:24] Barry: as a result of bringing that in, um, the mortality rate dropped to around about three percent.

[00:19:31] Shane: we also know that he, you know, made his proposal and everyone went, “Oh, absolutely. What a great idea. Let’s just instantly do that.” and there was no

[00:19:40] Barry: Not

[00:19:41] Shane: at all. Um, long did it take

[00:19:44] Barry: I’m sure how long it did take, but, um, yeah, the– he was certainly subjected to a lot of ridicule and as is often the case, you know, brilliant ideas don’t always fall on, uh, uh, receptive ground all the time.

[00:19:58] Barry: But, but however, uh, within, um, uh, another, um, 30 to 40 years, other people, uh, got onto this idea. So, um, the surgeon, um, John Lister, came up with the, the idea that, um, uh, not only,

[00:20:13] Shane: Not only,

[00:20:14] Barry: washing your hands but washing surgical instruments,

[00:20:16] Shane: instruments,

[00:20:17] Barry: between patients,

[00:20:18] Shane: patients,

[00:20:19] Barry: or, um,

[00:20:20] Shane: or,

[00:20:20] Barry: uh, sterilizing them,

[00:20:21] Shane: them,

[00:20:22] Barry: using autoclaves and that sort of thing,

[00:20:24] Shane: that sort of thing,

[00:20:25] Barry: was a good thing to do.

[00:20:26] Shane: thing to

[00:20:27] Barry: And,

[00:20:27] Shane: And, um,

[00:20:29] Barry: would stop the spread of disease, um, from patient to patient and from, um,

[00:20:34] Shane: from,

[00:20:34] Barry: uh, being spread by the physicians themselves.

[00:20:37] Shane: So when did the concept of germs really start to solidify?

[00:20:42] Barry: So this was only really in the late 1800s, um, with, um, people like Louis Pasteur, uh, and, um, Robert Koch, where they were actually able to show experimentally that isolating pure cultures of particular bacteria, which, could– they could then, um, use them to infect, um, experimental animals and show

[00:21:06] Shane: and

[00:21:06] Barry: that those animals came down with

[00:21:08] Shane: came

[00:21:08] Shane: down

[00:21:09] Barry: the same disease, uh, as they originally isolated, um, those bugs,

[00:21:14] Shane: bugs from

[00:21:15] Barry: So, um, you know, they’re showing very good proof, um, that those particular organisms were responsible for particular diseases such as anthrax.

[00:21:25] Barry: and, um,

[00:21:25] Shane: Yeah.

[00:21:26] Barry: yeah

[00:21:26] Shane: And so it sort of makes sense in terms of you going, “Okay, we understand that if we wash our hands, we don’t have these effects.” And so yes, now the question is why? And then we start to then you know, concept of germs. And so, now practically you’re only talking 150 years ago now. Um, so in the, yeah, scheme of, of humanity, uh, it’s really only been 150 years that we’ve actually understood why washing hands actually makes a difference. so we’ve got the growing knowledge, how is that still like, you know, forget about hospitality, let’s just stick with med- medicine. is that coming to play in hospitals and the like in terms of, you know, late 19th, early 20th century?

[00:22:17] Shane: What are the changes we’re seeing happening?

[00:22:19] Barry: yeah. So I think the, um, through the work of, um, people like Semmelweis and Lister, promoting the idea that, good hygiene for, uh, medics, um, is gonna cut down, um, the spread of disease and stop your patients from dying. that’s always gotta be a good thing and is

[00:22:39] Shane: and is

[00:22:39] Barry: going to,

[00:22:40] Shane: going to,

[00:22:41] Barry: your reputation.

[00:22:42] Shane: reputation.

[00:22:42] Barry: and aro-around about the same time,

[00:22:46] Barry: in the industrial scene,

[00:22:47] Shane: scene,

[00:22:48] Barry: there were,

[00:22:49] Shane: were, uh,

[00:22:50] Barry: breakthroughs, um, in terms of being able to produce, um, soap

[00:22:56] Shane: um, soap of good

[00:22:58] Barry: at really high volumes.

[00:22:59] Shane: volumes.

[00:23:00] Barry: so that enabled,

[00:23:01] Shane: enabled,

[00:23:02] Barry: manufacturers to really churn out bars of soap,

[00:23:05] Shane: of soap,

[00:23:06] Barry: very cheap price.

[00:23:07] Shane: price.

[00:23:08] Shane: And

[00:23:08] Barry: was no longer a luxury item.

[00:23:10] Shane: item

[00:23:11] Barry: everyone could afford to buy a bar of soap.

[00:23:14] Shane: bar of

[00:23:14] Barry: And so, um,

[00:23:16] Shane: um,

[00:23:16] Barry: that allowed,

[00:23:17] Shane: allowed, um,

[00:23:18] Barry: hand hygiene to, to go to a whole new level, if you like,

[00:23:21] Shane: if you like, um,

[00:23:22] Barry: really there was no excuse, uh, for not being able to wash your hands, uh, with a good bar of soap

[00:23:28] Shane: um, with a bar soap. It’s a funny concept.

[00:23:30] Shane: Okay. So, vaguely at what sort of year, what sort of decade are we talking about you could now go into a working class home and there’s a good chance that there’s a bar of soap

[00:23:42] Barry: So around, probably around about the Hmm.

[00:23:45] Shane: Okay. Um, and so that transformation alone, would start to have an impact. Uh, do we see that, like in terms of numbers of, of, um, uh, average lifespan or whatever? Do we-

[00:24:01] Barry: Well, it’s around about then that, that, yeah, human population really does start to go off. And I mean, if you, you know, even in New Zealand, if you go to an old cemetery, you’ll, you’ll see a, a lot of, um, young kids, um, died at, at very early ages, um, many of them through infectious diseases. yeah, and with improved hygiene, and other medical advances, of course, like antibiotics,

[00:24:28] Shane: end of

[00:24:29] Barry: improve life expectancy a whole lot

[00:24:31] Shane: Okay. Um, now I heard a comment which was about, survival rates on the, during the war. And so basically, as the concept of high hand hygiene and basic hygiene came in, suddenly soldiers were starting to, um, have a better chance of surviving, um, in the, you know, World War I, World War II. Uh, what were the, the that we were seeing now in the early, um, tw- uh, 20th century?

[00:25:01] Barry: hygiene, but also medical practice too. So I think w- um, the advent of, um, anesthetics, therefore people were able to survive much better,

[00:25:12] Shane: much better

[00:25:13] Barry: um, operations. So, you know, gone were the days of

[00:25:16] Shane: the days

[00:25:17] Barry: pouring half a bottle of rum down somebody’s throat while they sawed your

[00:25:21] Shane: saw a

[00:25:21] Barry: mut-

[00:25:22] Shane: Yeah.

[00:25:22] Barry: mutilated leg off.

[00:25:23] Barry: Yeah.

[00:25:24] Shane: Yes

[00:25:24] Barry: um, uh, and that sort of thing. And then, um, once we get to, um, World War II, um, then, uh, we start to get antibiotics coming on board. So of course that’s a real game changer. Uh, and the ability to kill bacterial infections, um, with relatively short doses of antibiotics, um, just totally, um, changed things altogether

[00:25:50] Shane: so if you are infected, you’ve got a better chance of survival, but you’ve got a better chance of not being infected. you’ve got a better chance of not going mental. okay. So things are looking good. Okay, so what are the positives of the, um, the twentieth century now in terms of, um, other hygiene things?

[00:26:08] Barry: because of, mass media, um, there’s the ability to advertise, hygiene products such as soap. Um, and I guess, um, because they were making quite a bit of money, they could then afford to sponsor, programs both on the radio and television.

[00:26:26] Barry: Uh, and so that sort of,

[00:26:27] Shane: that sort of,

[00:26:28] Barry: build,

[00:26:28] Shane: uh,

[00:26:29] Barry: builds on things.

[00:26:30] Shane: on things.

[00:26:30] Barry: and also

[00:26:32] Shane: also

[00:26:32] Barry: we’re sort of getting b-back again to,

[00:26:35] Shane: to,

[00:26:36] Barry: Roman culture, if you like.

[00:26:37] Shane: if you like,

[00:26:38] Barry: greater availability of public,

[00:26:39] Shane: public,

[00:26:40] Barry: washing facilities, so, um, places like schools and f– and factories and

[00:26:46] Shane: and,

[00:26:46] Barry: other institutions. the, the availability of good washrooms and toilets facilities and that sort of thing.

[00:26:53] Shane: that sort of thing.

[00:26:54] Barry: and so– and just general, um,

[00:26:57] Shane: Um,

[00:26:58] Barry: recognition that hygiene is a good thing, uh, to do

[00:27:02] Shane: to

[00:27:02] Barry: and cleanliness being next to godliness.

[00:27:05] Shane: godliness,

[00:27:06] Barry: you know, that, that whole,

[00:27:08] Shane: it.

[00:27:09] Barry: build on each other,

[00:27:10] Shane: other,

[00:27:11] Barry: bring about,

[00:27:11] Shane: bring about,

[00:27:12] Barry: generally good result.

[00:27:13] Shane: good result. Here’s an interesting When did the last sewage cart, and cart thingo

[00:27:21] Barry: That’s…

[00:27:21] Shane: disappear?

[00:27:22] Barry: Um, probably around about, uh, the ’60s or maybe even the ’70s, I suspect. yeah. Yeah,

[00:27:31] Shane: that

[00:27:31] Barry: I…

[00:27:31] Shane: of, yeah,

[00:27:33] Barry: Yeah.

[00:27:33] Shane: used to manually

[00:27:35] Barry: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:35] Shane: it

[00:27:35] Barry: Yeah, yeah.

[00:27:36] Shane: house outwards.

[00:27:37] Barry: Mm-hmm

[00:27:38] Shane: and so just something as simple as we’ve either got sewage everywhere, um, or we’ve got, you know, the, the treatment, you know, on blocks of land, treat it yourself. Um, it doesn’t have to be carted away anymore. so yeah, 50 years.

[00:27:53] Shane: Yes. Okay, hand sanitizer. When did hand sanitizer start becoming a thing? Where did that come from

[00:28:00] Barry: Um, so yeah, the f- the first of those started to come on s- tra- in the ’60s. and yeah, uh, and really probably came into their own, um, more like the ’80s. Um, yeah. A- and again, just sort of a alcohol-based hand sanitizer, uh, just a technological breakthrough. I’m not sure,

[00:28:22] Shane: Not sure,

[00:28:22] Barry: um, exactly who was the first,

[00:28:24] Shane: the first,

[00:28:24] Barry: uh, to bring it online, but

[00:28:25] Shane: bring them

[00:28:26] Barry: I, think it was probably an American company,

[00:28:28] Shane: company,

[00:28:28] Barry: um, started to, to mass produce that and then,

[00:28:31] Shane: and

[00:28:31] Barry: you know, that’s gone from strength to strength

[00:28:35] Shane: Okay. So, the good, the bad, the ugly for hand sanitizer

[00:28:39] Barry: well, soap and water is still probably the best, uh, and that’s just because, hand sanitizer really only works, uh, if your hands are visibly clean. So if you’ve got, um, mud or manure or whatever, or blood on your hands, then soap and water, will take that off really far better than alcohol-based hand sanitizers will.

[00:29:05] Barry: Um, but, the hand sanitizers, uh, in terms of convenience are really good because you can take them virtually anywhere.

[00:29:13] Shane: anywhere.

[00:29:14] Barry: don’t necessarily have to have running water,

[00:29:16] Shane: water.

[00:29:17] Barry: to

[00:29:18] Shane: they’re

[00:29:18] Barry: effective.

[00:29:19] Shane: effective and,

[00:29:21] Barry: some of the ones,

[00:29:22] Shane: the ones,

[00:29:22] Barry: that are not,

[00:29:23] Shane: are not,

[00:29:23] Barry: alcohol-based, still have disinfectant qualities for up to several hours after you’ve applied them, so that, that’s,

[00:29:31] Shane: protects, um,

[00:29:32] Barry: uh, uh, a plus with them as well

[00:29:34] Shane: tissue as well Yes. it’s just interesting. Yeah, but so this podcast is mainly aimed at environmental health officers. So you’re talking food, and because you’re talking food, yes, soap is, is definitely the way to go. Um, sanitizers can’t remove chemicals, um, so, you know, that’s always gonna be an issue. Um, but you can’t sanitize dirt. Like, you have to have, have clean hands. Medical industry, though, totally transformed, you know, the ability to be able to walk out of a ward and just instantly, sanitize your hands, you know, between patients or whatever. then it introduced the, the wonderful concept of now I’m just, like, continually saturating my hands with, with chemicals. but your hands have bacteria on it. So what’s the side effect of continually bombarding your own hands with something that’s designed to kill all life?

[00:30:33] Barry: no, that potentially can be a problem because the bacteria that are normally resident on your hands, uh, ha– play a role in, in protecting you um, disease-causing transients. so, you know, the, the, the resident bacteria, um, can produce, um, compounds that will, uh, kill the, the baddies that are coming out on

[00:30:57] Shane: out

[00:30:57] Barry: transiently, and so you don’t really wanna knock them back completely.

[00:31:02] Shane: completely.

[00:31:03] Barry: I ha- I have my doubts that,

[00:31:05] Shane: that,

[00:31:06] Barry: any hand sa- san- sanitizer will actually

[00:31:09] Shane: will

[00:31:09] Barry: completely rid your,

[00:31:11] Shane: rid

[00:31:11] Barry: hands of every,

[00:31:12] Shane: of every,

[00:31:12] Barry: microbe

[00:31:13] Shane: microbe

[00:31:13] Barry: present there.

[00:31:14] Shane: present

[00:31:15] Barry: but

[00:31:15] Barry: obviously, if you knock them down,

[00:31:17] Shane: down,

[00:31:17] Barry: enough,

[00:31:18] Shane: their

[00:31:19] Barry: to act as a

[00:31:20] Shane: to act as

[00:31:20] Barry: pr- protective barrier is gonna be,

[00:31:22] Shane: pathogens is

[00:31:23] Barry: reduced.

[00:31:24] Shane: reduced.

[00:31:24] Barry: So yeah, that’s a problem.

[00:31:25] Shane: that’s

[00:31:26] Barry: A- and also

[00:31:27] Shane: and also

[00:31:27] Shane: the

[00:31:29] Barry: uh, hand sanitizers,

[00:31:31] Shane: sanitizer

[00:31:32] Barry: can m– potentially make your hands dry and crack and, and therefore, um, perhaps, make you more susceptible to, to infections through cuts or splits

[00:31:43] Shane: and so now there’s a big difference between a cheap hand sanitizer and a good hand sanitizer. I should just do a, a blatant plug. Hi, Greg Whiteley. Thanks for being on the, uh, podcast a couple months ago. Uh, but there is a lot of research being done in, into better ways of doing sanitizer, better ways of doing soap.

[00:32:05] Shane: So, um, so now what I’m saying is in one sense, yeah, there’s a negative side and we’re trying to now, fix that, working around the problem, um, and addressing it. So, uh, so there you go. Uh, plug for Whiteley. I think it’s just Whiteley. Anyway, hi, Greg.

[00:32:24] Barry: Okay. So

[00:32:26] Shane: it’s– but it’s a good direction to go in terms of we’ve now got, um, more disinfectants.

[00:32:30] Shane: Uh, we’ve got- now got antibiotics. We’ve got, know, blah, blah, blah, chemicals to destroy absolutely everything. we going too far now?

[00:32:41] Barry: No, potentially we may be. Um, yeah, there, there’s certainly a school of thought says that, um, some of our, diseases that appear to be more frequent now than they used to be be a result of too much hygiene. And so, you know, um, it, it’s really interesting if you observe young children.

[00:32:59] Shane: children,

[00:33:00] Barry: You know, um,

[00:33:01] Shane: you know, um, everything

[00:33:02] Barry: goes into their mouth.

[00:33:04] Shane: mouth They,

[00:33:05] Barry: they, uh,

[00:33:05] Shane: have

[00:33:06] Barry: of ingesting a bit of, uh, garden soil and that sort of thing if left to their own devices.

[00:33:11] Shane: devices.

[00:33:12] Barry: that’s probably a natural thing in terms of exposing their maturing immune systems,

[00:33:17] Shane: systems,

[00:33:18] Barry: uh, to a wide range of, of bugs.

[00:33:21] Shane: bugs.

[00:33:22] Barry: and it may be also,

[00:33:24] Shane: also,

[00:33:25] Barry: helping to seed their intestinal microbiome with a diverse range of microorganisms too, which,

[00:33:32] Shane: which, um,

[00:33:33] Barry: on mic- the human microbiome tends to be suggesting that,

[00:33:37] Shane: that,

[00:33:38] Barry: there are a lot of good things, um, that potentially can happen with

[00:33:43] Shane: happen

[00:33:43] Barry: your own innate or microorganism, collection, um, that might help improve your health

[00:33:49] Shane: your

[00:33:49] Barry: if it’s kept,

[00:33:50] Shane: kept, uh,

[00:33:51] Barry: uh, as a, a,

[00:33:52] Shane: as a

[00:33:52] Barry: a diverse

[00:33:53] Shane: diverse

[00:33:54] Barry: and healthy community.

[00:33:55] Shane: community

[00:33:55] Barry: um,

[00:33:56] Shane: um,

[00:33:57] Barry: so yeah, um,

[00:33:58] Shane: yeah, um,

[00:33:59] Barry: th- these ideas are far from proven, but,

[00:34:03] Shane: but, um, certainly,

[00:34:04] Barry: um, are worth keeping an open mind about, I think

[00:34:07] Shane: mind about, I think. I’ve now got a, a granddaughter and so she’s getting to that stage of, everything’s gonna go into the mouth. Uh, but the problem is, uh, my, son lives in Parramatta, and so the dirt is probably 58% lead from old cars and, um, goodness knows whatever else. Will there be a market in the future for 100% authentic, um, country New Zealand dirt, like fresh dirt with, with just the good bugs in

[00:34:44] Barry: Potentially, yeah.

[00:34:45] Shane: be looking like?

[00:34:47] Barry: Yes. Yeah. No, no, no. It’s– That, could be a very good money spinner. Could, huh?

[00:34:52] Shane: so I’ve heard of, you know, already the, um, you know, the poop transferee stuff or whatever, but in the future, are we going to be, um, starting to see… forget about the antibacterials, more and more of that

[00:35:09] Barry: Hmm, hmm. Well, I mean, you, you already see that. I mean, look, there’s, there are lots of, um, products that are touted as, you know, having, um, beneficial probiotic, um, organisms in them. So, um, yeah, I think that that’s already happening to a certain degree

[00:35:26] Shane: so now we’ll need to– Yeah, the pendulum starts swinging back the other way. Okay. So looking into the near future, um, what’s the really cool stuff that’s actually happening when it comes to, um, hygiene and, uh, trends technology or whatever?

[00:35:43] Barry: Um, well, I gu- I guess, w- it– already to a certain degree, we’re seeing a lot of automated, um, hygiene stations, so that means that you don’t actually have to touch any physical surface to operate them. W-which is a good idea because,

[00:35:58] Shane: good idea

[00:35:59] Shane: because I

[00:35:59] Barry: know, with, with an old,

[00:36:00] Shane: old, uh

[00:36:02] Barry: uh, tap and hand basin system,

[00:36:04] Shane: system,

[00:36:04] Barry: what do you do?

[00:36:05] Shane: do? you

[00:36:06] Barry: You turn the tap on, you wash your hands,

[00:36:08] Shane: your

[00:36:08] Barry: and then you’ve got to

[00:36:09] Shane: and then you’ve

[00:36:09] Barry: turn it off again, or you may be able to achieve that with your elbow.

[00:36:12] Shane: your elbows.

[00:36:13] Barry: Um, but, um,

[00:36:14] Shane: But,

[00:36:14] Barry: uh, in many cases not, and you’ve probably just contaminated your hand again on the dirty tap handle.

[00:36:20] Shane: jet button

[00:36:20] Shane: and so

[00:36:20] Barry: so you know, that sort of thing,

[00:36:22] Shane: of thing,

[00:36:24] Barry: uh, will be good.

[00:36:25] Barry: And, um, I guess in, in terms of,

[00:36:29] Barry: hand,

[00:36:31] Barry: um, it, it may be that someone can develop

[00:36:34] Shane: can develop

[00:36:34] Barry: a hand sanitizer that, uh, selectively kills the bad bugs, uh, and allows

[00:36:40] Shane: allows

[00:36:41] Barry: ones to remain alive.

[00:36:43] Shane: alive So,

[00:36:43] Barry: um, how you achieve that, I’m not quite sure, but I’m sure, um, someone may well figure that out before too long

[00:36:52] Shane: Yes. And so we see that in antibiotics in terms of ones becoming more and more, selective or, than the big wide bomb ones. But anyway, uh, so, so better technologies there. okay, what are the bad things that we’re seeing emerge?

[00:37:11] Barry: Um, well, I guess, perhaps not so much emerge, but reemerge. I think people very quickly, um, fall back into, um, habits in terms of, hand hygiene and other hygiene as well. And so, you know, um, now that we don’t have a pandemic, um, scooting around the world anymore, I think people’s,

[00:37:34] Shane: positive

[00:37:35] Barry: attention to how well they’re washing their hands probably has slipped away again and will continue to do so until,

[00:37:41] Shane: until the

[00:37:42] Barry: um, the next pandemic or whatever comes along,

[00:37:45] Shane: comes

[00:37:45] Shane: along That’s one of the things we saw with product placement ad, um, uh, but Glow to Show and Glitterbug, the handwashing training products. We saw absolute boom in sales at the start of COVID, but then lockdown happened. But by the time we came out of lockdown, actually discovered that sales were below our 2020, 2019 sort of levels. And it wasn’t until 2024, that sales went back up, which we’re largely putting down to the fact that people just got sick of washing their hands all the time. And the moment they were told, “No, COVID doesn’t spread through hand contact. It’s through, um, the air,” everyone went, “Fantastic. We don’t have to wash our hands anymore. I’m never touching sanitizer.” so we then had this pendulum of, yeah, we’re sick of that. the other thing that we’re noticing now is outbreak of diseases that we’ve always historically immunized against, and now we’re going, “Oh, we don’t have that disease anymore, so therefore we don’t have to be immunized,” and back come the diseases. And handwashing very much fits into that category of have the problem, so we don’t wash our hands, and then having said that, Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, a third of the planet got… No, the planet got wiped out through a dirty handset. So when

[00:39:05] Barry: Yep.

[00:39:05] Shane: rid of the hand– uh, the, the phone sanitizers,

[00:39:09] Barry: Yep.

[00:39:10] Shane: was destroyed.

[00:39:11] Barry: Exactly

[00:39:11] Shane: Uh, yes. So, so there we go. That’s, uh, been an interesting journey through prehistoric times, uh, the dirty ages, uh, up to the, uh, 19th, 20th, 21st, into the 22nd century for the history of hygiene. we have covered history. We have covered biology. We have covered religion. We have covered Well, we covered everything.

[00:39:40] Shane: so yes, you’re… Congratulations. That is the broadest, uh, episode we’ve ever done, uh, probably ever will do. so thank you Barry for the history of hygiene

[00:39:55] Barry: Thanks, Shane. That’s been a lot of fun