EHO Knows: Brand New Day w/ Jason Barnes

[00:00:00] Shane: In this episode of EHO knows, this one’s gonna be an opinion piece, so it’s not gonna be a horror story. If you, after the horror stories, then skip this episode. But just imagine you’ve got a job where your boss’s boss doesn’t know what you do, don’t even know that you exist, that when the jobs that you are really, really good at come up and they go to someone else.

[00:00:22] Shane: Meanwhile, you’re giving jobs that just aren’t your job. And when you go to the barbecue and someone says, Hey, what you do, and you tell them, this is what I do, they just look at you blankly and have absolutely no idea. Um, at that stage, you’ve got an identity crisis. People just don’t know who you are, what you do.

[00:00:40] Shane: Um, and so I would argue the environmental health. Industry is really in that situation. And part of the reason for doing the podcast is it’s a great opportunity to be saying, Hey, here’s the stories of what we do. This is the difference we make. Um, but there’s someone who’s taken this problem head on, um, and it’s Jason Barnes, and he’s written a paper all about the, the branding issue that environmental health officers have and tried to talk about how to find a way out of it.

[00:01:15] Shane: How do we navigate into the future to improve the brand? So Jason, welcome to EHO knows,

[00:01:23] Jason: Thanks very much Shane. It’s a real privilege to be with you.

[00:01:25] Shane: in 30 seconds, who are you? What do you do?

[00:01:29] Jason: Uh, I am Dr. Jason Barnes. I’m a lecturer with Latrobe University. Um, and I teach the next generation of environmental health officers for, uh, our Australian environmental

[00:01:44] Shane: Environmental health.

[00:01:46] Jason: our, our profession. and look, I’ve come from practicing as an EHO in local government for many years. I’ve made that transition to academia just recently.

[00:01:58] Jason: And, uh, I’ve got a few agendas to, uh, to meet as well in doing so, and certainly building our profession into something that’s sustainable and strong.

[00:02:07] Shane: So you really are on the coalface in terms of, uh, how do you get HSE students going, oh, I wanna become an environmental health officer. Um, training them, equipping them to go out into a workplace, which largely doesn’t even know what they do or appreciate them. So, um, so this entire branding, uh, impacts you day in, day out.

[00:02:30] Shane: Um, so you wrote a paper, uh, environmental Health Practice and Identity in Crisis, not pulling your punches there. Um, and so. Yeah, we’re gonna talk about that, but I’m gonna be tackling it from, I’m a marketing person, I love marketing. Um, and so branding is just all about marketing. Um, and so we’ll run through your paper and we’ll just have a look at it as to, with me, with my marketing hat on.

[00:02:58] Shane: This is what I think. but let’s start, what’s the problem? Fundamentally, what’s the problem that the entire industry’s got

[00:03:05] Jason: Indeed. Look, I think we are an industry that has remarkable impact in our world, and without us, uh, the world would be a very different place. But at this point in time, we have a real problem with expressing the value and the impact that we actually have. So we are quietly competent as a profession. As environmental health practitioners, we’re very good at going

[00:03:33] Shane: they’re very good at going out.

[00:03:34] Jason: things from happening, solving problems without people seeing that, without people knowing what is going on or who these people are doing it. And certainly when we do that

[00:03:46] Shane: when we do that,

[00:03:47] Jason: it means that

[00:03:48] Shane: it means that our

[00:03:50] Jason: Just is not before the world. And, and if, if that’s the case, face some real challenges ahead of us in terms of getting that recognition, getting our seat at the table, getting our place at the, uh, the, the public health interfaith and, and in those decisions that are made

[00:04:09] Shane: decisions be made about,

[00:04:11] Jason: lies and what it is that we do in public health practice into the future.

[00:04:17] Shane: so one of the problems with, um, environmental health is if you do your job right, no one hears about it. You know, uh, it’s when you screw up that people then say, well, wait a minute, who’s responsible for this?

[00:04:31] Shane: And so the, the challenge I see is the more successful you become, the harder it is to brand, to be out there and be known because you’re successful. Uh, whereas other people, you know, if you’ve got a cure for cancer and you can be shown person after person that you’re curing, then hey, look at that. You are a miracle worker.

[00:04:55] Shane: But if you are getting everyone to avoid getting cancer because you are doing your job and they’re not being exposed to the chemicals, no one hears about you, um. And so in one sense, you become a victim of your own success. Uh, so here we go. so hugely important, but when you get your job right, no one hears about it.

[00:05:14] Shane: And when you get your job wrong, everyone knows about it. okay, so here we go. In your paper, you talk about, uh, the trouble with our inherited brands. And so you’d list a whole bunch of ways that you’re currently seeing. Um, I’ve got your paper in front of me, we’ll see if you’ve memorized your paper. but you talk about compliance and assessment and enforcement.

[00:05:36] Shane: What’s the problem with, if that’s what you are seen as as a brand?

[00:05:41] Jason: Look, compliance assessment is something that’s really been a longstanding descriptor of. work that we do or the people that we are, the role that we play. And it certainly is a, something that we do. It’s something that’s really a large and

[00:05:57] Shane: Large.

[00:05:58] Jason: of the work that we do. And I think back

[00:06:01] Shane: I think back to my time

[00:06:03] Jason: as an environmental

[00:06:04] Shane: an advisor

[00:06:05] Jason: on the front line,

[00:06:08] Shane: and

[00:06:08] Jason: certainly

[00:06:09] Shane: certainly those that,

[00:06:10] Jason: my work certainly reflected on that and,

[00:06:13] Shane: that,

[00:06:13] Jason: and thought

[00:06:14] Shane: thought

[00:06:15] Jason: department

[00:06:15] Shane: department,

[00:06:16] Jason: as simply compliance assessment.

[00:06:19] Jason: They’re the people that go out and do the inspection. They get the

[00:06:23] Shane: they get the job done by

[00:06:24] Jason: it

[00:06:25] Shane: taking it bit off and that’s sure. Legal,

[00:06:27] Jason: But there’s a real

[00:06:28] Shane: but there’s a,

[00:06:29] Jason: with that and, and there’s a lot of

[00:06:30] Shane: there’s a lot of that

[00:06:31] Jason: with that for our brand and for our profession. One of those is that the, the science

[00:06:39] Shane: science

[00:06:40] Jason: that we have, because we are scientists. We are scientists, we use science. We translate that science into

[00:06:48] Shane: into

[00:06:49] Jason: health protection outcomes for our community. The science and the knowledge is lost.

[00:06:54] Shane: What.

[00:06:54] Jason: We are not using that or applying that anymore to shape our lens. Instead, what we are doing is we are simply observing and we are

[00:07:04] Shane: And we’re

[00:07:05] Jason: or crossing.

[00:07:06] Shane: across we a

[00:07:07] Jason: view of the world of

[00:07:08] Shane: world.

[00:07:09] Jason: it complies or it doesn’t comply. One of the other challenges that we

[00:07:15] Shane: that we,

[00:07:16] Jason: the compliance assessment brand is that we’re no longer

[00:07:20] Shane: we no longer,

[00:07:21] Jason: place where we can stand to truly fix public health issues at their core. Again, because

[00:07:28] Shane: again, because

[00:07:28] Jason: science

[00:07:29] Shane: from science and

[00:07:31] Jason: relying on a legislative framework. We just

[00:07:35] Shane: we just,

[00:07:36] Jason: if we are doing compliance assessment, so we don’t really

[00:07:39] Shane: but we don’t really have those.

[00:07:41] Jason: to deal with the central issue that’s underlying a lot of these broader public health problems anymore. It also

[00:07:50] Shane: It also means that some strange things start to happen and certainly some of rule

[00:07:54] Jason: are environmental health practitioners might,

[00:07:56] Shane: might

[00:07:57] Jason: resonate with

[00:07:58] Shane: resonate with this as well, but

[00:08:00] Jason: of

[00:08:00] Shane: value of

[00:08:01] Jason: as environmental health practitioners starts to be measured in very strange ways, very spurious kind of ways. So the measurement

[00:08:09] Shane: the measurement of

[00:08:10] Jason: is how many inspections did you do this week, this month, this year? How many non-compliances did you

[00:08:18] Shane: did you,

[00:08:18] Jason: Uh, how many

[00:08:20] Shane: how many enforcement actions did you take?

[00:08:22] Jason: And it’s not really reflective at all on the impact that we’re having or reflective of the purpose of why we’re doing what we do, which is really the protection of public health.

[00:08:34] Shane: So it’s a little bit like the police where you then say, okay, the role of the police is to book so many people. And so then you’re going, well, wait a minute. The role is to keep people safe. And then you suddenly started to be seen as a revenue source, or you’re just seen as being punitive.

[00:08:51] Shane: And so yes, if your role is, how many inspections are you doing, how many defects, that’s even worse because that one’s an interesting one in terms of, oh, wait a minute, we don’t want any because you know, otherwise you get a bad reputation. Or wait a minute, we want you to do so many because that demonstrates that you’re doing your job, which then just means that, you know, uh, poor old Parramatta picked on by the media all the time because they’ve got the most, um, restaurants on their name and shame restaurant, uh, website, but they’re out there doing a really, really good job.

[00:09:24] Shane: So, so yes, once you start measuring something, well, wait a minute, that’s not what the job is. The job is about making restaurants safe. It’s not about rocking up it once every six months or 12 months and going, bang, look at this. I’ve got my tally. So, yeah. So you, you focus on the wrong thing.

[00:09:42] Jason: That’s, that’s it. And, and, and the danger that that really opens up for our profession is that you don’t need a degree anymore. The law’s in front of you. You can check whether it complies or it doesn’t. Yes or

[00:09:56] Shane: Yes.

[00:09:56] Jason: Uh, is, is food being held of the

[00:10:00] Shane: Outside the temperature.

[00:10:02] Jason: or no? so it means that,

[00:10:04] Shane: So it means everything

[00:10:05] Jason: we lose that knowledge, we lose that contextual input that’s so important to our assessment of the protection of public health and the risk to public health.

[00:10:17] Shane: and

[00:10:17] Jason: Um, and that’s, that’s a real danger.

[00:10:19] Shane: danger and I.

[00:10:20] Jason: probably the worst thing that really comes from all of this is that great potential if we our work as compliance assessment, we. Also by default categorize it as red tape. makes

[00:10:36] Shane: That makes, its

[00:10:38] Jason: Uh, particularly where

[00:10:40] Shane: for governance

[00:10:42] Jason: into that space of saying, look at all of the red tape we’ve just reduced for local business or those

[00:10:48] Shane: business,

[00:10:49] Jason: It means

[00:10:49] Shane: it means

[00:10:50] Jason: to being taken away. And while our, our job

[00:10:53] Shane: our job is

[00:10:55] Jason: involved

[00:10:55] Shane: in,

[00:10:56] Jason: in legal encumbrance, that’s not the purpose of what we do. job’s about public health. And I think it’s important that we make sure

[00:11:04] Shane: we make sure,

[00:11:05] Jason: our brand is that it is Dolly invested in public health and protecting it.

[00:11:12] Shane: I made a joke about making a joke about the US before we started recording, but the irony is that in the US we literally saw the government overnight just sack. Thousands, tens of thousands of public servants because they’re red tape, because they’re useless, because they’re just slowing down, um, the, the economy businesses that get in the way.

[00:11:38] Shane: And so the problem is yes, once you’re seen as just being red tape, uh, it’s just asking for elimination. Um, and in one sense that’s right. Um, but yeah, it’s, wait a minute, we’re not red tape. We’re doing something important. yeah. Okay. Next. Um, human health risk assessment.

[00:12:00] Jason: Brilliant. This is, look, this is a key

[00:12:02] Shane: This is a key feature of

[00:12:04] Jason: our teachings for

[00:12:05] Shane: for

[00:12:06] Jason: environmental

[00:12:06] Shane: environment,

[00:12:07] Jason: and it really

[00:12:08] Shane: it really must be that key

[00:12:10] Jason: role. And it

[00:12:11] Shane: our role and certainly

[00:12:12] Jason: health risk

[00:12:13] Shane: human health,

[00:12:13] Jason: is at the center of about all

[00:12:16] Shane: just about all of the work

[00:12:17] Jason: we do as environmental health practitioners. And it, it

[00:12:20] Shane: It

[00:12:20] Jason: reflect

[00:12:21] Shane: from

[00:12:22] Jason: uh, rather more of what we do.

[00:12:25] Jason: But the trouble that this particular inherited brand has for us is it stops well

[00:12:33] Shane: Well short

[00:12:33] Jason: the

[00:12:34] Shane: from telling the true story.

[00:12:35] Jason: the things that we’re doing in that space. It doesn’t come to that narrative that really covers what we are doing as environmental health practitioners in our role. We don’t just

[00:12:47] Shane: We don’t just assess,

[00:12:49] Jason: to human health, we also step beyond that to start thinking

[00:12:54] Shane: start to

[00:12:55] Jason: and ways that we manage

[00:12:56] Shane: manage.

[00:12:57] Jason: to human health. So while

[00:12:59] Shane: So while

[00:13:00] Jason: health

[00:13:00] Shane: human health

[00:13:01] Jason: brand is certainly a step in the right direction,

[00:13:04] Shane: direction.

[00:13:05] Jason: far more progressive and for more relevant than our compliance assessment inherited brand. It still stops short of that because it’s, it’s only going to that assessment of the work that we do when really there’s far more to it.

[00:13:20] Jason: There’s, there’s far more to achieving public health outcomes from that management of risk and, and designing interventions and placing them appropriately within systems to bring about those positive public health outcomes.

[00:13:38] Shane: It’s also just a little bit of an obscure, misleading sort of term. So as a title, if I was to gloss over that, I would immediately think, oh, H and s, um, or I’d be thinking about, you know, just. Other risks sort of things as opposed to when an environmental health officer actually does. And so, um, so it’s an interesting label.

[00:14:01] Shane: Yes, it’s part of it, but there’s so many other people who do that in different aspects. So, um, it’s, it’s a bit of a vague one. okay. In your paper you then go inspection and investigation, which is sort of an overlap, but yeah, you are back on focusing. If you’re just talking about inspection, investigation, what are the risks?

[00:14:22] Jason: Look. Yes, absolutely. And again,

[00:14:25] Shane: Inspection,

[00:14:27] Jason: are really natural parts of the work that we do. They’re methods that we employ every day to gather the data to inform our decision making. But lots of other

[00:14:38] Shane: lots of

[00:14:39] Jason: use. or investigations

[00:14:43] Shane: investigation.

[00:14:43] Jason: gather the data to inform their assessments of whatever it is that they’re doing. Even the police

[00:14:50] Shane: the police.

[00:14:50] Jason: of thing, like we mentioned before with your example. Um, and

[00:14:54] Shane: Um, and so it’s sexual investigation

[00:14:58] Jason: coming up against

[00:15:00] Shane: up against

[00:15:00] Jason: issue

[00:15:01] Shane: this issue

[00:15:01] Jason: not

[00:15:02] Shane: where we’re not

[00:15:03] Jason: describing the unique value that our brand gives and we’re also not. At all describing the outcomes of those kinds of things.

[00:15:12] Jason: So yes, we inspect, yes, we investigate. Absolutely we do. But we’re not achieving an outcome through just doing that process. There’s a lot

[00:15:21] Shane: There’s a lot more dis,

[00:15:22] Jason: more science and, intervention design that’s gotta be contextual and appropriate, uh, if we’re going to bring about those public health outcomes.

[00:15:32] Jason: So again, a,

[00:15:34] Shane: again, a limited

[00:15:35] Jason: describing what it

[00:15:36] Shane: what it is.

[00:15:37] Jason: and, and really it’s stepping away from identifying the coherent narrative that really spells out our unique value proposition that we offer to the world. Um, because it’s just describing methods that we use to do whatever it is that we might happen to do.

[00:15:55] Shane: Yeah. Okay. Now we’re gonna go on a total tangent from your paper. And so you were saying, Hey, here’s some of the ways that we’ve been misunderstood from a branding point of view, from a marketing point of view, when people hear environmental health officer or you know, you step in, what’s the emotional response that’s loaded up with that term?

[00:16:18] Jason: well, I guess the listeners all have their own experience of that. And if I reflect on my experience of, of that in practice, it, it really was, the health department, they’re here to do an inspection today. it’s

[00:16:33] Shane: it’s, it’s always that.

[00:16:34] Jason: inspectors coming. Uh, it’s, uh, oh, we’re gonna be regulated, we’re gonna be critiqued, we’re gonna be, uh, we’re going to have to fight or fly.

[00:16:44] Shane: Offline,

[00:16:45] Jason: of those kind of emotional reactions, I guess is something that we commonly experience because. Too often we are being put into that compliance assessment category or that inspector or investigator category. Uh, we’re here to be judged or critiqued. And,

[00:17:03] Shane: and

[00:17:04] Jason: it’s not

[00:17:05] Shane: it’s not

[00:17:05] Jason: those environments where we are received perhaps in a way that

[00:17:10] Shane: in a way that allows us to really system

[00:17:12] Jason: scientifically assess risk actually looks like and, and really truly assess,

[00:17:19] Shane: truly,

[00:17:19] Jason: uh, what public health outcomes might be. Um,

[00:17:23] Shane: um,

[00:17:23] Jason: and if we are to be

[00:17:26] Shane: be in that from

[00:17:28] Jason: kind of, uh, think of, oh, they’re the health inspector, they’re the regulator,

[00:17:32] Shane: regulator.

[00:17:33] Jason: people. they’ve come to see me today. Um. There’s not

[00:17:38] Shane: There’s not really that, that natural

[00:17:43] Jason: approach to

[00:17:44] Shane: to

[00:17:45] Jason: interventions or,

[00:17:47] Shane: or, uh, ing up,

[00:17:49] Jason: education or redesign to

[00:17:51] Shane: or designed to motivate

[00:17:52] Jason: in

[00:17:52] Shane: change behavior

[00:17:53] Jason: change in approaches, changes in the

[00:17:56] Shane: changes in the way that others are managing.

[00:17:59] Jason: their businesses or whatever it is that they’re doing. So it,

[00:18:03] Shane: So

[00:18:03] Jason: really

[00:18:04] Shane: really that

[00:18:05] Jason: kind of

[00:18:06] Shane: kind of engagement relationship

[00:18:09] Jason: by being

[00:18:10] Shane: by being clean that we

[00:18:12] Jason: Um, by,

[00:18:13] Shane: by, by

[00:18:14] Jason: off

[00:18:14] Shane: guarding off on the back.

[00:18:15] Jason: And certainly

[00:18:16] Shane: And certainly when I reflect on it into,

[00:18:19] Jason: to the organization that I worked in as well,

[00:18:22] Shane: well,

[00:18:22] Jason: were

[00:18:23] Shane: we were always a little bit out outside as well, because

[00:18:26] Jason: the regulatory people. They’re not

[00:18:28] Shane: they’re not really the

[00:18:30] Jason: Bring community together,

[00:18:32] Shane: together about

[00:18:33] Jason: wellbeing focused

[00:18:34] Shane: focused people.

[00:18:35] Jason: they’re the

[00:18:35] Shane: They’re the regulators.

[00:18:37] Jason: um, we don’t

[00:18:39] Shane: We don’t

[00:18:40] Jason: what it

[00:18:40] Shane: get what it’s,

[00:18:41] Jason: We don’t

[00:18:42] Shane: we don’t really

[00:18:42] Jason: with

[00:18:43] Shane: engage with

[00:18:43] Jason: don’t really

[00:18:44] Shane: them. We don’t really understand

[00:18:46] Jason: prospect that they can offer to the other

[00:18:48] Shane: other work that they’re doing

[00:18:50] Jason: or in

[00:18:50] Shane: or

[00:18:51] Jason: it is

[00:18:51] Shane: whatever.

[00:18:51] Jason: org is doing. Um, so the, the recognition there, I guess, uh, by the feeling the emotive response of what the inspector role, uh, might be seen within our, within the public, um, certainly

[00:19:08] Shane: certainly becomes a barrier being two of you, able to engage and actually

[00:19:13] Jason: the

[00:19:13] Shane: demonstrate the value that our environment

[00:19:17] Jason: can offer

[00:19:17] Shane: and

[00:19:17] Jason: sorts of

[00:19:18] Shane: sort

[00:19:19] Jason: whether that be within our organization on things we’re trying to achieve, or it be

[00:19:23] Shane: it

[00:19:24] Jason: outcomes with stakeholders within our community as well.

[00:19:27] Shane: What about your, uh, emotional response that you get from friends?

[00:19:32] Jason: Look,

[00:19:34] Shane: Indeed and I,

[00:19:36] Jason: we have a

[00:19:37] Shane: we have a bit of a, a challenge

[00:19:39] Jason: this

[00:19:39] Shane: in this space, but perhaps our brand

[00:19:43] Jason: isn’t

[00:19:44] Shane: isn’t CO

[00:19:46] Jason: To be able to express what it is or who we are and to do

[00:19:51] Shane: and that

[00:19:52] Jason: Um, so the experience

[00:19:54] Shane: very

[00:19:55] Jason: uh, environmental health practitioners and engaging with different stakeholders might be

[00:20:00] Shane: might be quite accurate because

[00:20:02] Jason: been

[00:20:02] Shane: they’re being interpreted

[00:20:04] Jason: a

[00:20:04] Shane: as

[00:20:04] Jason: or a different thing. Um, and, and I think

[00:20:07] Shane: I

[00:20:08] Jason: that lack of understanding of where the value is or the purpose even is behind those interactions, and the focus of where that interaction needs to go, um, means that this, this inconsistency leads to a really lost or confused expectation. And I, I, I even think

[00:20:30] Shane: Even feedback,

[00:20:31] Jason: of those times where I would go on site to do a food safety inspection or something like that, and people would

[00:20:38] Shane: the people you’ve been showing me doing.

[00:20:40] Jason: hydrants are. And, and, and so a

[00:20:43] Shane: So understanding of

[00:20:45] Jason: What are you here

[00:20:46] Shane: what

[00:20:46] Jason: are you trying to achieve?

[00:20:47] Shane: achieve,

[00:20:48] Jason: Um, and,

[00:20:49] Shane: um,

[00:20:49] Jason: all about? Because there’s distinct inconsistency and, and a

[00:20:53] Shane: and

[00:20:54] Jason: inconsistent expectation. And fair enough. Because as a, as a, profession, we really haven’t done a great job of expressing a coherent narrative behind what our brand actually is. What is it? What is the product? The unique value that we offer as our environmental health practice banner.

[00:21:17] Shane: yes. Okay. Um, emotional response of year 12 students to environmental health.

[00:21:25] Jason: Look, a lot of the students that, or prospective students that I engage with are very much

[00:21:31] Shane: Very much attracted

[00:21:32] Jason: the environmental health fan that we have at open days and things like that because they think

[00:21:38] Shane: they think they’re getting into environ.

[00:21:41] Jason: That’s really the appeal.

[00:21:44] Shane: Yes.

[00:21:44] Jason: they’re in there to, um, to engage with wildlife and,

[00:21:48] Shane: Wildlife

[00:21:48] Jason: that, or to, to engage with, you know. Environment protection

[00:21:54] Shane: Protect

[00:21:54] Jason: its rawest and, and most natural form. certainly, you know, environmental health practice certainly does cover domains of environmental protection, particularly from that pollution perspective. uh, really it, in terms of

[00:22:10] Shane: in terms of the,

[00:22:11] Jason: it’s

[00:22:12] Shane: it’s.

[00:22:13] Jason: it’s a, it’s an assumption out there that environment must mean natural environment, of course.

[00:22:18] Jason: And, and really helping students to understand that our environment is our debting, um, it’s our externalities. Um, and, and that kind of thing takes a lot of time. It takes a lot

[00:22:32] Shane: Yes,

[00:22:32] Jason: to really explain the interface and the interconnections between health and setting. Health and environment, health and surrounding. Um, and, and while we have some

[00:22:43] Shane: we have some public students that join us and

[00:22:46] Jason: and sign up,

[00:22:47] Shane: sign up.

[00:22:48] Jason: only really after their first year that they have that. Penny dropping moment of, oh, okay, I get it.

[00:22:55] Shane: I get it.

[00:22:56] Jason: Right? I understand this place. I understand a bit more about what environmental health practice actually is about, and I can sign up for that.

[00:23:06] Shane: So the irony is that the group of people that you get the best emotional response from have the response because of totally the wrong reason. And they think that you are a bunch of tree hugging environmentalists. Um, and then you go, well, no, that’s not quite what we’re about. Um, having said that, though, of all the professions, you’re probably the, um, the closest one to being able to immediately start to have an impact on the environment.

[00:23:37] Shane: Um, rather than trying to have this impossible, we’re going to save the world. So it’s misguided, but close enough that you can actually use it. Um, and then you also said of those students that approach you, I would argue that the largest emotional response that you would get from students is no emotional response because they just don’t know about you.

[00:24:01] Shane: Um, okay. And last one, politicians. Um, when politicians think about environmental health officers, what’s their emotional response?

[00:24:16] Jason: When we see politicians in this realm, of course we’ve already discussed the red tape context to this, but we

[00:24:25] Shane: we’re are very,

[00:24:26] Jason: the regulators and very much

[00:24:28] Shane: very much,

[00:24:29] Jason: the ground.

[00:24:31] Shane: and

[00:24:31] Jason: we

[00:24:32] Shane: when we measure those things to demonstrate to politicians

[00:24:35] Jason: impact or the effect of our work,

[00:24:38] Shane: work

[00:24:38] Jason: often,

[00:24:38] Shane: quite often end. We

[00:24:40] Jason: in

[00:24:40] Shane: that in ways that.

[00:24:41] Jason: inspections

[00:24:42] Shane: Sections.

[00:24:43] Jason: How many enforcement actions did you take? So

[00:24:47] Shane: So it, it’s very much from

[00:24:50] Jason: front that we

[00:24:51] Shane: that

[00:24:51] Jason: from

[00:24:52] Shane: be

[00:24:52] Jason: of

[00:24:52] Shane: a lot of politicians

[00:24:54] Jason: it’s the, hmm,

[00:24:55] Shane: be

[00:24:55] Jason: you’re a legal encumbrance. You are a challenge

[00:24:59] Shane: challenge,

[00:25:00] Jason: me, bringing

[00:25:01] Shane: bringing a doubt

[00:25:03] Jason: Prosperity within

[00:25:04] Shane: within our community.

[00:25:05] Jason: you’re a barrier

[00:25:06] Shane: You are a barrier to that

[00:25:07] Jason: and, and you are someone that I

[00:25:09] Shane: someone, you know, work.

[00:25:11] Jason: Um,

[00:25:12] Shane: Um, so I, I guess that, that emotion.

[00:25:14] Jason: is perhaps we are a little distasteful, uh, a, as a, an image or as a brand to that, that political view. Perhaps

[00:25:26] Shane: Okay, so the, the bastard question where the rubber hits the road. Hypothetically, there’s a pandemic. Um, and so suddenly, public health is a major, major issue. Environmental health officers, did the politicians go, Hey, here’s a great resource to get their knowledge as to how to respond, ideas as to how to respond?

[00:25:49] Shane: Or did they go, Hey, here’s a bunch of labor that we can then have them walk around with tape measures going, you’re not two meters apart. politicians, COVID, eh, environmental health officers, what did they do?

[00:26:03] Jason: Look uh, I guess it it, across Australian jurisdictions. We certainly

[00:26:08] Shane: Certainly,

[00:26:09] Jason: in the way that environmental health practitioners were viewed, but certainly within

[00:26:13] Shane: certainly within the jurisdictions that I was working when

[00:26:17] Jason: environmental

[00:26:18] Shane: environmental health officers were received.

[00:26:20] Jason: message of. You go and do what you always did, and don’t let things get in the way of that. Uh, we’ve got other

[00:26:29] Shane: We

[00:26:29] Jason: to deal with emerging health crisis, and they’re public health people and they’re, they’re medically trained and they will forge the way forward for us environmental health officers. We don’t quite understand

[00:26:46] Shane: don’t quite understand what we’re doing, but

[00:26:47] Jason: enforcement elements of some of the things that we implement to protect public health here, we might call on your services. So I think

[00:26:56] Shane: I’ve been,

[00:26:56] Jason: my

[00:26:57] Shane: from my perspective and certainly from

[00:26:59] Jason: experienced, uh, COVID and the, and the response. From, from government in particular around the

[00:27:06] Shane: around the way that they,

[00:27:08] Jason: health practitioners roles in that,

[00:27:10] Shane: in that,

[00:27:11] Jason: like you said, it was

[00:27:12] Shane: 1930, very much

[00:27:13] Jason: the ground. People that can go out and take those

[00:27:16] Shane: those

[00:27:16] Jason: the

[00:27:16] Shane: on,

[00:27:17] Jason: measurements or those on the

[00:27:19] Shane: on the ground

[00:27:20] Jason: assessments of,

[00:27:22] Shane: of

[00:27:22] Jason: whether people

[00:27:23] Shane: with the bleeding, those.

[00:27:25] Jason: or not. But in terms of, uh, using or recognizing the unique values that we can offer in terms of, uh, infection control and, uh, influencing, uh, public behavior, motivating, uh, change and control, uh, of environmental hazards, uh, that seem to be lost, seem to be

[00:27:49] Shane: Yeah, so. Your papers pointing out. And you know the conversation here, there’s a distinct disconnect between what you do and what you’re perceived to do, um, to the point where no one can actually accurately describe what you can do. Um, and arguably, and this is where we’ll be heading soon, spoiler alert, uh, how do you actually define what you do?

[00:28:13] Shane: So that’s the academic side of things. Um, and that’s totally misaligned. And then on the emotional side of things, uh, the people that you step into help see you as, as, um, a problem. They having a negative emotional response. They don’t like to see you, they want you gone. Um, your work colleagues just see you as overhead.

[00:28:40] Shane: They’d be happy for you to be gone as well. Might be great to have a coffee with or whatever, but. As a department, the general public are going, I dunno what you do, but oh yeah, you’re the food inspectors. Um, guess that’s good. Um, and the politicians, they’re definitely there going, uh, don’t tell me what to do.

[00:29:03] Shane: I’ll tell you what to do. Um, and so as a brand, you’re stuffed, okay. They dunno what you do and they don’t like you. That’s a branding issue that almost puts you up there with Telstra in terms of people that you just don’t like. ~Um, so, uh, if I cut this episode in half and go with two half episodes, that’s where I’m cutting.~

[00:29:21] Shane: As a brand, you are staffed. Wait until next week’s exciting episode to work out what the answers are. Um, so here we go. Let’s, let’s fix the problem. ~And if we’re starting the second episode with, Hey, we’re gonna fix the branding problems with environmental health and we achieve it, uh, yeah, I think we deserve a pay rise, um, because it’s not easy.~

[00:29:34] Shane: ~Um, uh, so,~ so let’s start with, you’ve got materials and methods. What is it that we do then? Uh, and you’ve got the World Health Organization’s 1990 definition. Um, uh, do you know it off the top of your head or do you want me to read it?

[00:29:49] Jason: Yeah, look, I’ve got it. I’ve got it. So it’s, uh, you’re happy, uh, environmental health comprises those aspects of human health and disease are determined by factors in the environment. It also refers to the theory and practice of assess. controlling factors in the environment that can potentially affect health.

[00:30:11] Shane: What’s awesome about that is having read it, I’m still none the wiser as to where the demarcation is exactly what’s to happen. Um, and definitely no feel good. Hmm. Um, and then what I actually picked up on was the word in the middle, which is determined by factors in the environment. Um, and the reason why I said this was written in 1990 is because we are now looking at this definition in, uh, 2026 and we have got a full on environmentalist blinkers on this definition in the 1990.

[00:30:49] Shane: Wouldn’t have even thought about environmentalism. Um, and so, so as a definition, as a starting place, it’s automatically misleading. but yeah, so, so that was your starting point.

[00:31:05] Jason: It

[00:31:06] Shane: you went out.

[00:31:06] Jason: an extremely broad definition in in what it is though. You’re right. It doesn’t demarcate who or what or, or, or anything like that. But it’s not, it’s not implicitly wrong. It’s, it’s, it’s still relevant, it’s still to what environmental health practice involves and the broader definition, I guess, of environmental health.

[00:31:26] Jason: So there’s still a role for it, but I think we need to get a bit more specific with, uh, the way that we define our coherent narrative of what it is that we do and who we are.

[00:31:38] Shane: And in one sense, there are a couple keywords in it that are really cool because it doesn’t just say assessing factors in the environment. It says assessing and controlling. And so there is that, that reactive or, uh, proactive aspect of what the role is rather than just, you know, uh, you walk around with a clipboard.

[00:31:56] Shane: So it was the starting point. You then went out, um, because. You are in a university and this is what you have to do. Uh, and you reviewed all the literature out there, uh, and there’s a, well, yep. You can see it. There’s, there’s a stack of different papers out there. how diverse was the, the response as to this is you looking at what do environmental health officers do in the literature? Um, yeah.

[00:32:25] Jason: It. Look, uh, the review

[00:32:29] Shane: The review was,

[00:32:30] Jason: wasn’t the most comprehensive assessment of literature that’s out there that mentions

[00:32:36] Shane: you just admitted you did an all-nighter.

[00:32:39] Jason: Huh. Maybe in all weaker, who knows? But, uh, at this point, what we can take from what came up in the literature is that we don’t really talk about environmental health practice that much.

[00:32:55] Jason: And when we do, there are some

[00:32:57] Shane: There are things,

[00:32:58] Jason: and it themes that our definition or the way that we describe environmental health practice the years has developed. It’s evolved. And naturally so it should have, because our practice probably has as well. element to

[00:33:14] Shane: element

[00:33:14] Jason: is that there is health protection that emerges as this central paradigm in all of the descriptions that we see.

[00:33:22] Jason: So health

[00:33:22] Shane: health protection needs,

[00:33:24] Jason: something that bubbles up to the surface, I

[00:33:27] Shane: and I think that’s entirely relevant because entirely

[00:33:30] Jason: do.

[00:33:30] Shane: we do,

[00:33:31] Jason: protect

[00:33:32] Shane: loudly

[00:33:32] Jason: health from

[00:33:33] Shane: from those

[00:33:34] Jason: factors.

[00:33:35] Shane: we,

[00:33:36] Jason: we

[00:33:36] Shane: when we look at

[00:33:37] Jason: into that though, and, and certainly

[00:33:39] Shane: certainly

[00:33:40] Jason: one of the

[00:33:40] Shane: one of the challenges.

[00:33:41] Jason: see with the World Health Organization’s definition from the nineties as well, that there seems

[00:33:48] Shane: There seems to be this

[00:33:49] Jason: this inference that we directly engage with factors in the

[00:33:56] Shane: in the

[00:33:57] Jason: We as environmental health practitioners are getting our hands dirty we’re going

[00:34:04] Shane: we’re

[00:34:04] Jason: and

[00:34:04] Shane: going out dealing,

[00:34:05] Jason: these human health hazards are in the environment directly, that we are

[00:34:10] Shane: we,

[00:34:11] Jason: So there seems

[00:34:13] Shane: it seems to be this development that bubbles up and it sounds very weird.

[00:34:17] Jason: to time through the literature over the years as well. Something that does

[00:34:22] Shane: It does come up,

[00:34:24] Jason: occasionally, and it, it sort of recurs through the years the literature that we see is that

[00:34:30] Shane: is that practice

[00:34:32] Jason: health practice to

[00:34:34] Shane: ought to be in

[00:34:35] Jason: as

[00:34:36] Shane: their health.

[00:34:37] Jason: So certainly

[00:34:38] Shane: certainly while we have our health,

[00:34:40] Jason: paradigm that is central to almost

[00:34:42] Shane: Almost all of those,

[00:34:44] Jason: there does seem

[00:34:45] Shane: does seem to be

[00:34:47] Jason: a campaign, I guess that keeps finding

[00:34:50] Shane: fine in its way to the surface.

[00:34:51] Jason: maybe

[00:34:52] Shane: Maybe we need Tothink the way that we

[00:34:55] Jason: environmental health practice to not just

[00:34:57] Shane: not just protect,

[00:34:59] Jason: but improve it or promote it or enhance it or shape

[00:35:03] Shane: shaped in a way that changes people’s lifestyle behavior

[00:35:08] Jason: of things as well,

[00:35:09] Shane: well

[00:35:09] Jason: they

[00:35:09] Shane: so that they

[00:35:10] Jason: higher degrees of health

[00:35:12] Shane: of health,

[00:35:13] Jason: or experience better wellbeing, I guess. Um, however, that. and then it disappears, and then it emerges and it disappears again. As the literature

[00:35:25] Shane: literature

[00:35:27] Jason: as it evolves

[00:35:28] Shane: evolved. He’s been.

[00:35:29] Jason: And certainly what we see post naughties, uh, hens, and 20, uh, in that more contemporary literature and

[00:35:39] Shane: Literature description,

[00:35:41] Jason: health practice is the emergence of

[00:35:43] Shane: emergency

[00:35:45] Jason: and risk management within the work that we do, in the way that we describe it. However, with the descriptions over time, probably the, the

[00:35:56] Shane: probably

[00:35:57] Jason: that is

[00:35:57] Shane: that is

[00:35:58] Jason: completely

[00:35:59] Shane: completely consistent

[00:36:01] Jason: literature is inconsistency in the way we describe what environmental

[00:36:06] Shane: environ.

[00:36:06] Jason: is.

[00:36:07] Shane: if you stepped into the us and even that’s a big generalization because state by state, uh, if you stepped into the us, if you stepped into the, um, Europe and then once again, country by country. State by state, um, stepped into Africa, um, stepped into Australia, would the definition and the concept and the expectations vary radically?

[00:36:34] Jason: Potentially there will be some, some variation there. Um,

[00:36:38] Shane: Um,

[00:36:39] Jason: certainly

[00:36:40] Shane: certainly the literature does think,

[00:36:42] Jason: western biased, and that is a pretty common thing that we see with all literature is that it is largely western biased. But certainly there

[00:36:52] Shane: certainly there seems to be

[00:36:53] Jason: with any

[00:36:54] Shane: graphic

[00:36:55] Jason: jurisdiction of.

[00:36:57] Shane: of

[00:36:58] Jason: Health

[00:36:59] Shane: health protection

[00:37:00] Jason: paradigm, dealing with factors in the environment, being central to those descriptions as well. there being this new conceptualization of risk, assessment of risk management. And certainly

[00:37:13] Shane: certainly for us

[00:37:14] Jason: do

[00:37:14] Shane: to do

[00:37:15] Jason: environmental health practice, uh, in any of

[00:37:18] Shane: any of those.

[00:37:19] Jason: uh, geographical settings, uh, in those community settings, um,

[00:37:25] Shane: Um,

[00:37:26] Jason: needs to

[00:37:26] Shane: there needs to be that in

[00:37:28] Jason: guess, or that alignment of the way that we

[00:37:31] Shane: the way that we deal with it

[00:37:32] Jason: there is,

[00:37:34] Shane: um,

[00:37:35] Shane: and

[00:37:35] Jason: about

[00:37:36] Shane: think about what it is that they’re

[00:37:37] Jason: if we’re controlling those factors in our environment while the. Unique identification of some of those factors that might impact us differently in those different locations or in those different socioeconomic, uh, settings or those kinds of things, those socioecological

[00:37:56] Shane: socio

[00:37:57] Jason: aspects that really do shape

[00:38:00] Shane: shape,

[00:38:00] Jason: the context

[00:38:01] Shane: the context,

[00:38:01] Jason: with. the

[00:38:03] Shane: really, the way that,

[00:38:04] Jason: those kinds of things by using science and, and systematically assessing the way that

[00:38:10] Shane: that,

[00:38:10] Jason: is managed from those

[00:38:12] Shane: from that environment,

[00:38:14] Jason: is something

[00:38:15] Shane: he’s something that

[00:38:16] Jason: It is something

[00:38:17] Shane: he, something that.

[00:38:18] Jason: There’s a universality to that that be entirely relevant to environmental health practice in any

[00:38:24] Shane: in any

[00:38:25] Jason: or any jurisdiction, whether that be geographical or otherwise.

[00:38:29] Shane: and so content. Let’s go down to emotion. Is there a difference in emotional response as you go around the world? Um, yeah. Are they, are some of them aiming for fear? Are others aiming for, I don’t know, warm fuzzies? any thoughts there?

[00:38:48] Jason: Look, when we, when we reflect on this, and, and this really is a, a, a central argument that comes back in showing the worth of environmental health practice showing the value it really is in those jurisdictions that place environmental health practitioners within their front line of their health protection systems, we, we certainly see a, a fairly universal way

[00:39:16] Shane: way that we engage

[00:39:17] Jason: the

[00:39:17] Shane: and the way that

[00:39:19] Jason: practice is expected to function. When we see some

[00:39:24] Shane: see some of those jurisdictions that

[00:39:27] Jason: health practitioners do not form part of that front line of public health services or public health systems, those health protection systems, start to

[00:39:38] Shane: we start to see

[00:39:39] Jason: emergence

[00:39:40] Shane: emergence of

[00:39:41] Jason: of disease,

[00:39:42] Shane: disease,

[00:39:43] Jason: of

[00:39:43] Shane: heart of in,

[00:39:45] Jason: types

[00:39:45] Shane: you know, spark

[00:39:46] Jason: health

[00:39:47] Shane: of mental health

[00:39:48] Jason: are

[00:39:48] Shane: impacts.

[00:39:49] Jason: So when we

[00:39:50] Shane: So when you look at it that

[00:39:52] Jason: we actually

[00:39:53] Shane: we actually start to see

[00:39:55] Jason: we might be able to understand and show the value of environmental health practice. Because as we were talking about before, the challenge that we have is we’re, we’re trying to show

[00:40:07] Shane: the truck showed

[00:40:08] Jason: happening. We’re trying to

[00:40:10] Shane: yes.

[00:40:11] Jason: uh, something that is a non eventuality and really. way that

[00:40:17] Shane: The way that we

[00:40:18] Jason: is if you take environmental

[00:40:20] Shane: environ

[00:40:21] Jason: or environmental health practice out of the equation, all of a sudden

[00:40:25] Shane: of a sudden

[00:40:26] Jason: of

[00:40:27] Shane: impact.

[00:40:27] Jason: health practice is distinctly apparent, is distinctly apparent. But when we

[00:40:33] Shane: But when we try to

[00:40:34] Jason: or measure that

[00:40:35] Shane: measure that within

[00:40:36] Jason: really microcosm of

[00:40:39] Shane: of

[00:40:39] Jason: our

[00:40:40] Shane: within our countries,

[00:40:41] Jason: even within our local jurisdiction, with our state or, or even municipality or those kinds of things. That distinction’s

[00:40:48] Shane: that distinction’s not here. Distinction’s not here.

[00:40:51] Jason: is not there because we don’t see those two

[00:40:52] Shane: We don’t see those two extreme.

[00:40:54] Jason: So really when we

[00:40:55] Shane: So really when we look at it from that global perspective,

[00:40:57] Jason: that

[00:40:58] Shane: that.

[00:40:59] Jason: where we can start to understand better the value and start to understand some of those levers.

[00:41:06] Jason: We can start to pull and demonstrate with it is the unique value prospect, the unique value proposition of environmental health practice really, truly is.

[00:41:19] Shane: how cohesive are we, internationally in terms of, are we all trying to head in the same direction or is there a pool? Some groups are trying to go in one direction, some groups are going in another direction as to, you know, what are the fundamentals or, or what’s the messaging going to be?

[00:41:41] Jason: This. Look, there’s certainly some, uh, western traditions that underpin a lot of the way that we conceptualize environmental health practice within Western and developed nations. Uh, and, and

[00:41:55] Shane: And, and certainly there are.

[00:41:57] Jason: there of our. For fathers that were the health surveyor or even the surveyor of nuisance and those kinds of things really have have shaped the way that we conceptualize it in western nations, in other areas of the globe.

[00:42:15] Shane: areas of the globe

[00:42:16] Jason: isn’t

[00:42:16] Shane: that isn’t right

[00:42:18] Jason: and certainly we

[00:42:19] Shane: and certainly

[00:42:20] Jason: health practice being broken up into domains or disciplines or those kinds of things, and often they are

[00:42:26] Shane: often they

[00:42:28] Jason: uh, professions that aren’t necessarily

[00:42:31] Shane: necessarily

[00:42:32] Jason: practitioners at all. We see things like food

[00:42:35] Shane: things

[00:42:35] Jason: being portioned off into a food

[00:42:38] Shane: into

[00:42:38] Jason: focused area

[00:42:39] Shane: focus area.

[00:42:41] Jason: or those kinds of things. We see, uh, other elements

[00:42:45] Shane: elements of.

[00:42:46] Jason: practice around housing standards, standards of habitation and those kinds of things. Going to others within a, a, a really focused and almost compliance centric compliance check kind of role as well. Something that’s unique. Um, and, and certainly

[00:43:04] Shane: And certainly these things that

[00:43:05] Jason: lot of the

[00:43:06] Shane: lot of,

[00:43:08] Jason: of environmental health practice as well. So that is,

[00:43:11] Shane: so that, that is really a reflection and, and potentially a danger that

[00:43:16] Jason: health practice isn’t conceptualized as. Managing those factors within the environment that can harm human health. And so they’re

[00:43:25] Shane: So they’ve depart

[00:43:26] Jason: into other

[00:43:27] Shane: covered domain domains where it’s natural law

[00:43:30] Jason: for a government to shape that as a health protection system. But it’s fragmented and consequently

[00:43:36] Shane: frankly it’s not.

[00:43:38] Jason: within itself. So internationally, we start to

[00:43:40] Shane: we start to see these different,

[00:43:42] Jason: of what environmental health protection systems

[00:43:45] Shane: and

[00:43:46] Jason: look like. And that’s a real

[00:43:48] Shane: that’s a real challenge that we lose,

[00:43:49] Jason: as well, in identifying

[00:43:51] Shane: identify

[00:43:52] Jason: what our narrative is, what it is we do, so that we

[00:43:55] Shane: so that we can be

[00:43:56] Jason: together a bit

[00:43:57] Shane: a bit

[00:43:58] Jason: uh, of

[00:43:58] Shane: more.

[00:44:00] Jason: shaping of what those health protection systems actually look like with environmental health practitioners. Right. Dead center.

[00:44:08] Shane: So from a marketing point of view, you know the pinnacle of marketing, Coca-Cola, McDonald’s, you can go anywhere in the world and you’re gonna see the Coke symbol, or you’re gonna see the golden arches and, and you know what you’ve got. Um, and the marketing is consistent all around the world. Yes, they might localize it a little bit, but you’re pretty much getting the same, concept, the same feeling, the same standardization.

[00:44:40] Shane: Here. This would be the equivalent of saying to McDonald’s in every single country, Hey, you go and do your own marketing. You decide what you wanna do, not happy with the golden arches. You can make them something else. And, and in fact, we’ll leave it up to store by store basis as to. What you are going to do.

[00:44:59] Shane: Um, and so, uh, so yes, we can talk to every single environmental health officer and, and get a slightly different idea, but as you’ve pinpointed, you step into a certain country and you go, well, no, that’s not your job. That’s a food scientist. Oh no, that’s not your job. That’s whatever else. And so, yeah, there’s, so as a branding exercise, you’ve got that challenge in terms of even if you got it right, you’re still then competing against mixed messages coming in from other countries or whatever.

[00:45:32] Shane: okay, so I’ll highlight it down at the bottom problem. No clear identity. Uh, people, organization, countries going in different directions. and so, uh, section 4.2, forging a coherent narrative.

[00:45:50] Jason: Indeed. So when

[00:45:53] Shane: When

[00:45:54] Jason: on

[00:45:54] Shane: reflect,

[00:45:55] Jason: tells us and we reflect

[00:45:57] Shane: reflect on

[00:45:58] Jason: as environmental health practitioners every day, if we bring them together

[00:46:03] Shane: them,

[00:46:04] Jason: and we think about what it is that we do, the, the thing that we

[00:46:09] Shane: the thing that we

[00:46:10] Jason: as I mentioned before, is that while the hazards that are

[00:46:15] Shane: are

[00:46:15] Jason: in the center

[00:46:16] Shane: center of

[00:46:17] Jason: environmental, and they’re usually in sentient the

[00:46:22] Shane: and data

[00:46:23] Jason: we go out, we take measurements, and we make assessments things that are both environmental and social. There’s elements in that social domain that we are measuring, assessing, determining, as well. When we start

[00:46:38] Shane: when we start.

[00:46:40] Jason: they’re almost always within that social domain. We’re telling people to do things or we’re asking people to change their behavior, we are trying to shape things in a way that we stop people doing

[00:46:53] Shane: People doing something

[00:46:54] Jason: leading

[00:46:55] Shane: leading to,

[00:46:56] Jason: a loss of control of an environmental hazard. we

[00:47:00] Shane: we,

[00:47:01] Jason: we educate, we compel, we punish duty holders. We deal with people. And often

[00:47:09] Shane: often

[00:47:10] Jason: the

[00:47:10] Shane: it’s

[00:47:11] Jason: gets lost in what it is that we’re trying to describe of environmental health practice is that

[00:47:16] Shane: is that

[00:47:17] Jason: not

[00:47:17] Shane: we’re not going out,

[00:47:18] Jason: with those environmental factors directly ourselves. We are

[00:47:23] Shane: we are

[00:47:24] Jason: assessing the way

[00:47:25] Shane: the way that,

[00:47:26] Jason: manage the risk to public health from those environmental factors.

[00:47:31] Jason: And then we

[00:47:32] Shane: and then we start.

[00:47:33] Jason: our interventions usually within that social domain that inform, educate, compel, punish. So

[00:47:41] Shane: So

[00:47:41] Jason: think

[00:47:42] Shane: when we think about that.

[00:47:43] Jason: we were to reflect on what that is and try and shape up a bit of a narrative, use empirical and social

[00:47:51] Shane: Process

[00:47:52] Jason: to then inform our assessment of risk and the adequacy of risk management so that we can

[00:47:59] Shane: so that we can then revise those

[00:48:00] Jason: interventions and affect

[00:48:02] Shane: and suicide.

[00:48:04] Jason: of public health. And so when we

[00:48:06] Shane: And so when we think about that, we new scientific

[00:48:09] Jason: of inquiry and to our reasoning, and we use regulatory

[00:48:14] Shane: regulatory,

[00:48:15] Jason: to inspect and investigate, like we mentioned before, inform, educate, compel, and force. And then we place our interventions in that social domain. So I can pr perhaps a, a, a. Description, a narrative

[00:48:32] Shane: narrative.

[00:48:33] Jason: environmental health practice. It would be that we scientifically and systematically assess the adequacy of how duty holders manage risk to public health from environmental hazards. as appropriate, will apply to motivate or improve their management, the management of the risk we can better protect public health.

[00:49:01] Shane: I’m thinking about that one. It’s, um, oh, do I go with my alternative? This is the EHO knows, uh, definition and, uh, do I, do I pull my punches? environmental health, stops your shit from becoming other people’s shit. and largely that’s, it’s, it’s all about how do you, you have people live together such that they’re not.

[00:49:25] Shane: You know, negatively impacting each other. Um, and I’d like to extend that to saying and not destroying their environment in the process. but yeah, it’s, uh, I don’t think that one will pass master as pump. I, I can’t say it becoming the, the logo of, uh, you know, EHA or whatever.

[00:49:43] Jason: It’s,

[00:49:43] Shane: but

[00:49:43] Jason: very much the point though, because the, the problem is spanning from behaviors of people,

[00:49:50] Shane: yes. Um,

[00:49:52] Jason: we intervene to manage those behaviors.

[00:49:55] Shane: and, uh, but what I also then the challenge, so this is me putting my marketing hat on. I hate your definition, um, because your definition is straightaway. What were the opening three words? we scientifically and.

[00:50:09] Jason: and systematically

[00:50:11] Shane: Yeah, and what you just did was put me to sleep.

[00:50:15] Jason: yes.

[00:50:16] Shane: And so, so this I think is one of the challenges with the industry is that you’ve got two challenges.

[00:50:22] Shane: One is you wanna be seen as professional, competent here, and yet at the same time you wanna be then, um, making sure that you are, emotionally engaging at the same time. Uh, and so that’s the challenge is you, you led with scientifically and then going. That is so true, but it then just doesn’t resonate with the public.

[00:50:47] Shane: It doesn’t resonate with, um, moms and dads. It doesn’t resonate with cafe owners. And I think that’s a huge branding issue. Um, but then at the same time, you don’t wanna compromise and be seen as, hey, we’re the happy, feel-good people, because that then undermines you with politicians and undermines you with, uh, you know, the CEO of whichever council and, and whatever.

[00:51:11] Shane: So, I, I say that as a fascinating, uh, branding challenge

[00:51:16] Jason: Indeed. I, I agree and look that that really is a, a, a very, uh, clinical definition, I guess, of, of the narrative behind what it is that we do as environmental health practice. And I think

[00:51:30] Shane: and I think there is a.

[00:51:31] Jason: for reforging that emotional response to the, the name environmental health practitioner or environmental health officer or whatever it is, through those

[00:51:43] Shane: That

[00:51:43] Jason: and the way

[00:51:44] Shane: and the way that we start to express

[00:51:46] Jason: our

[00:51:46] Shane: our brand, the way that we can,

[00:51:48] Jason: brands through those interactions with

[00:51:51] Shane: with those

[00:51:51] Jason: to actually value

[00:51:53] Shane: value of,

[00:51:53] Jason: the work that it is that we do, we can help them

[00:51:57] Shane: design

[00:51:58] Jason: and start to shape their own. Personal description

[00:52:03] Shane: friction emotionally

[00:52:05] Jason: or, or association, I guess with a particular outcome. Something that’s benefiting them, something that they are valuing from will be in a better place to have a brand. Then that sparks a different emotional response other than heading off into, dreams of, of better

[00:52:24] Shane: of better things. Yeah.

[00:52:26] Jason: of nicer things.

[00:52:27] Shane: ’cause you actually asked the question, do we need to change our name to fit with our newfound narrative? And you know, once upon a time you are called food inspectors and you know. The name does change, and by mental health office totally misleading because it sounds like you’re a bunch of, of tree hugging greenies.

[00:52:45] Shane: Um, and so yeah, that’s a problem. But could anyone actually now come up with a good name for you and would it actually be able to take off? Or is the industry so big now that you could never, ever change the name

[00:53:02] Jason: Look, I, I think if we are at a point where we can shape those experiences, those interactions, and really do a good job of selling what it is, the, the value proposition of our work, because it is impactful, it is valuable, it protects community health, public health. If we can do that, then it really shouldn’t matter what it is that we are called because all of a sudden

[00:53:29] Shane: all of a sudden?

[00:53:30] Jason: helped our community build their literacy of what it is that we do or what it is that we’re offering them. And all of a

[00:53:38] Shane: And all of a sudden

[00:53:39] Jason: health practitioner is a natural term that they’re familiar with. One that

[00:53:44] Shane: one that they

[00:53:45] Jason: with particular

[00:53:46] Shane: with particular events, values that they,

[00:53:49] Jason: the work we do. I don’t know

[00:53:52] Shane: I dunno if this is the time

[00:53:54] Jason: nor my place to be able to, uh, proffer whether we change our to something different. it’s probably

[00:54:03] Shane: probably

[00:54:04] Jason: necessary if we do a good

[00:54:06] Shane: do

[00:54:06] Jason: job of building the actual value proposition and demonstrating that to our stakeholders, those that really do need to understand what it is we do and to identify the impact that we have so that their associations sort, of start

[00:54:23] Shane: of start shape that brand.

[00:54:25] Shane: Which is now I’m, I’m, I wanna dive into the, you know, how can we actually do all these things, but interestingly, that’s where your paper finished. Um, but I will go back one step and you’ve got this beautiful table. Um. And it’s no good me holding it up ’cause no one will see. But I should get my video editor to actually drop it in, download the paper.

[00:54:47] Shane: But you’ve got this table and it says, domain of environmental health practice and you’ve got food safety, water quality, wastewater management, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it goes on for two pages. Um, means of inquiry, duty holder, focus of assessment, environmental health hazards, interventions applied.

[00:55:02] Shane: Uh, and I look at this table and I go, okay, domain of environmental health, food safety, water quality, blah, blah, blah. Duty holder, food businesses, food business operator. Whatever. And straight away I go from a marketing point of view, that’s the market. So what you’ve got is this table and it lists 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 2, a dozen, more than a dozen different domains.

[00:55:28] Shane: And because of that, you’ve got about 50 or more duty holders, which means that you’ve got 50 markets, which means that from a awareness point of view, you’ve got 50 different markets that you need to increase your brand awareness to, to demonstrate value. That’s a challenge. Uh, just point it out there if you, if you fail to realize.

[00:55:52] Shane: Um, but to me that when I looked at this table, when that really highlights from a marketing point of view, the big, big challenge you’ve got because you can put your open into one and be neglecting the other. But this is 50 different groups, 50 different emotional, um, reactions, 50 different false assumptions.

[00:56:12] Shane: That can be, um, be worked upon. yeah.

[00:56:14] Jason: entirely right. I think if, if I can flip that around for a

[00:56:18] Shane: around

[00:56:19] Jason: lining, um, I can, we’re at this place though, where we have 50 engaged markets. We’re already doing work with these people. We’re already engaging with these people within our day-to-day practice. So we already have the opportunity to have the voice with these markets as well.

[00:56:38] Jason: So it’s our opportunity now to start sharing with them and helping them hear and understand the value that they stand to take from the work that we do. And I’m not

[00:56:49] Shane: we do, I’m not trying to

[00:56:50] Jason: uh, uh, undermine

[00:56:52] Shane: undermine

[00:56:53] Jason: true

[00:56:54] Shane: the.

[00:56:55] Jason: of the effort that this is going to take. make shift in those markets to actually build anything like brand equity in those markets. But it’s a starting point and it’s not starting on the outside, it’s starting on the inside.

[00:57:12] Shane: the next observation I had was you had means of inquiry, you know, inspection, investigation, sampling, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, interventions applied, uh, education advice, blah, blah, blah. From a marketing point of view, I’d say, what, this is the product. This is what you, you deliver. Um, and then, uh, but what you just said then was, well, wait a minute.

[00:57:34] Shane: Here’s 50 areas that we’re already, um, working in. Um, what you don’t have in this table is all the problems. Here’s all the problems that these stakeholders have for which we then provide the solution. And part of the reason is because, yeah, then you’d suddenly have a list that’s not, uh, a dozen, it’s not 50, it’s not even 500.

[00:58:01] Shane: Like that list is. A thousand, 10,000. Like what are all the problems that you fix, that you avoid, that you can provide solutions on? And um, and then from a marketing point of view, uh, that’s what we, we do, we don’t like, don’t focus on the product. You focus on the problem. And so you’re going, look, got this problem, we can help, bad marketing create the, um, the problem.

[00:58:30] Shane: Um, so you’re not cool. Drink some other product that will, you know, but yeah, you don’t have that, that list of problems. And so from a branding point of view, look at all these things. Look at the all the different ways we help, latent, uh, product placement. Oh, there’s a podcast called EHO knows that talks about, you know, here’s the problems and whatever, but.

[00:58:56] Shane: My suggestion is tell the stories. Don’t, don’t solve the problem and shut up about it. Be sharing the, um, the stories. But here’s the marketing tip. Um, too often the type of posts I see in Facebook are, here’s a wonderful, uh, you know, EHOs, if you go, don’t, don’t focus on, you just go, oh, you know, here’s a blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:59:23] Shane: Unfortunately people don’t like to be, you know, mentioned with the bad crap, but you know, blah, blah, blah, uh, have this problem, this is the solution. Oh, look at that. Um, and so then you’re starting to see, be seen as the solution provider rather than just going, Hey, we exist. Um, so, so yeah, you didn’t have the list of problems in your table, probably because you wanted to keep it to, you know, 24 pages, uh, 13 pages technically.

[00:59:53] Jason: It does

[00:59:54] Shane: how do environmental, yeah, so how do environmental health officers go at, um, at being visible as the solution provider?

[01:00:06] Jason: Uh, I was suggesting before,

[01:00:09] Shane: Jeff

[01:00:09] Jason: we are already engaging in these spaces and we are already placing those interventions, those interventions come as a result of the problems that arise. And they also give us a platform in which we can be expressing unique value that it is that we are using.

[01:00:27] Jason: And as well as that, we can talk about some of the methods of the way that we got there, our coherent narrative of what environmental health practice is. So when I think about

[01:00:38] Shane: I think about that.

[01:00:40] Jason: the days when would go out and

[01:00:42] Shane: I would go out and

[01:00:43] Jason: inspection and I’d write up the report for the food business and quite often we would use a

[01:00:49] Shane: we use a template and.

[01:00:50] Jason: of your listeners

[01:00:51] Shane: Of your listeners

[01:00:52] Jason: Align with this as

[01:00:53] Shane: with

[01:00:54] Jason: the template would say

[01:00:55] Shane: to say

[01:00:56] Jason: date, whatever, Jason undertook a food safety inspection at your premises to assess compliance with the food act,

[01:01:06] Shane: that

[01:01:06] Jason: Yeah. The following items are

[01:01:09] Shane: items to details

[01:01:10] Jason: attention. In doing

[01:01:13] Shane: doing

[01:01:14] Jason: we are not at all to any extent to

[01:01:18] Shane: extent,

[01:01:19] Jason: the methods we’ve used that. Uh, are reflective of our unique approach or our unique values in the way that we achieve that, uh, that that outcome, that result. And also we are not

[01:01:32] Shane: and also we are not

[01:01:33] Jason: or showing, demonstrating

[01:01:35] Shane: demonstr

[01:01:35] Jason: that the problems that we are

[01:01:37] Shane: that

[01:01:37] Jason: to solve the problem we are trying to help with. There’s no mention there

[01:01:41] Shane: there’s no mention there

[01:01:42] Jason: mention there of applying our scientific knowledge to assess control of those environmental health hazards. And there’s no,

[01:01:50] Shane: there’s no.

[01:01:50] Jason: way of us saying

[01:01:52] Shane: of us saying that

[01:01:53] Jason: that food business now to address these items in the interest of protecting public health in the interest of improving their management of risk, uh, within their food business, within, within their realm of being able to maintain their reputation, their reliability, their own branding. Um, so this is our opportunity to start. Rethinking the way that we express in all of the interactions that we have with those that stand to value from the work that we do. So it’s in those inspection reports that we start to express better what it is we’ve

[01:02:32] Shane: what it’s with

[01:02:33] Jason: how that is a benefit.

[01:02:35] Jason: What is, what is the value here for those receiving that report, those receiving a letter from us. When we write our strategic plans or our budget bids, our environmental health

[01:02:47] Shane: health.

[01:02:48] Jason: environmental health programs, need to be

[01:02:51] Shane: We need to Sure that

[01:02:52] Jason: expressing these kinds of things in there so that stand to value from it understand that we are the only people that can be doing that for them and what a great

[01:03:02] Shane: and what a great value

[01:03:03] Jason: them. That we are providing to them through the way that we do it, through the way that environmental health practice is delivered. that’s the thing for us to start to shift, is the way that we express ourselves and taking the advantage of every one of those

[01:03:22] Shane: of those,

[01:03:23] Jason: whatever it be, whether

[01:03:24] Shane: whether it

[01:03:25] Jason: in, in the light of, oh, it’s a bit compliance, it’s a bit enforcement. it be

[01:03:30] Shane: or it.

[01:03:31] Jason: a, a brighter outlook in terms of his strategic objectives or his strategic directions. Or here’s a program that we wanna get up in our environmental health unit for the betterment of public health. Underpinning that, underlining that of where the value is, where the unique value of environmental health practice is, is an important thing for us to start doing.

[01:03:53] Jason: And all of a sudden we start to and build and build what it is that is our brand, the way that we’re expressing it, we start to get it into those various markets that we need to get into. Um, but it’s important that we have consistency in the way we’re doing that too.

[01:04:13] Shane: Um, you also touched on one of the, um, the key principles for marketing is, uh, W-I-I-F-M, uh, the world’s most popular radio station, and it stands for what’s in it for me. Um, so every message that we give, if the audience doesn’t care about it, if it’s not about them, they tune out and pretty much if you get a report, what’s in it for me tends to be we want you to fix this or will hit you with a stick.

[01:04:39] Shane: And that’s the, okay, why would I wanna read this? Uh. But then you touched on, you know, the role of, of the environmental health officer is to keep the public safe. Now, at that stage, that doesn’t tick the what’s in it for me box at all. Who cares about the others? I’m a struggling business. I’m trying to put food on the table for my family.

[01:05:03] Shane: But the byproduct of me doing this is I will protect your reputation. I will make sure that your customers are giving you five star reviews rather than a one star review because you put half of them in hospital. Um, and so, yeah, how we put that message across, you can talk about, you know, these are the methods, this is what we do, but underlying all of that is why.

[01:05:30] Shane: You do it and then trying to have that really resonate with, you know, the recipient. Um, and unfortunately, yeah. Okay. When the food inspector steps in and you are there with dread because of, you know, the problems, or wait a minute, you, here’s the environmental health officer. Excellent. So good to see you have a look at this.

[01:05:56] Shane: I’d love your feedback on this. I’m struggling with this. What can I do here? Um, and then that’s the difference in branding in terms of, um, yeah. Oh, fantastic. This is helping me. I want you, I need you. Uh, and it would be awesome if the politician said, oh, I want you, I need you. Please. You know, what are your thoughts here?

[01:06:20] Shane: Okay, so, uh, I’ll, I’ll finish with this question. What do you think? Should be the emotional response that the public should have or, um, businesses, whatever. When they hear you are an environmental health officer, what’s the emotion?

[01:06:41] Jason: Really something we need to aim for is, thank goodness you’re here. Really? Wouldn’t that be a wonderful thing to hear when you step into a food business or you step into a situation of investigating a, a noise complaint or a, an environment or pollution issue or whatever, have you, thank goodness you are here.

[01:07:00] Jason: Someone that can scientifically, systematically assess the risk to human health and to find a way out of this, way forward that protects public health and gets a good outcome for everyone. Wouldn’t that be a lovely thing?

[01:07:15] Shane: I think that’s an awesome place to finish. So, um, thank you. Thank you very much, Jason for, um, for, well one writing the paper, but trying to tackle the, um, the problem and for being here on EHO nos.

[01:07:29] Jason: Thanks very much, Shane. It’s been a real pleasure.